Tournament Poker Edge | Learn Poker Strategy | Tournament Poker Training from the Pros - Topic: shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

discount on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Tue, 09 Aug 2011 07:29:52 -0400

RonFezBuddy said:

Sorry my daughter had to go to the emergency room this weekend so we've been tied up. She fell and got a cut to the left of her eye requiring a bunch of stitches...been a bit hectic but i'll have a look tonight for sure.

No apology necessary mate, I have two daughters myself and they come first over everything. Hope she's getting better now and cheers for the update.

RonFezBuddy on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Mon, 08 Aug 2011 21:10:11 -0400

Ah, actually i see where the error is. For some reason the formula which was in there got overwritten. It should pull from "Your Stack" field. Instead it was manually input (probably when i was debugging the first problem we were going over). I fixed it and uploaded it again.

RonFezBuddy on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Mon, 08 Aug 2011 21:04:58 -0400

discount said:

Another one I think

Pot 600

Your stack 1000

BB 250

Effective stack 1000

Single call range 60.00%

Left to act 1

Call % 60.00%

Fold % 40.00%

Win % 30.00%

Lose % 70.00%

If we shove and get folds 1600

If we shove, get called and win 2600

If we shove, get called and lose 0

Results

EV of a shove 1108

EV of a fold 6250

Net EV of a shove -5142

EV as % of a shove -514.20%

EV as # of BBs -20.57

Risk of busto 42.00%

I haven't worked this one out it seems way off. If I'm understanding correctly the "Net EV of a shove" can never be a negative number higher than my stack, ie if my stack is the effective stack of say 2000 the Net EV of a shove can never be worse than -2000 and I'd have to lose every time to get the -2000, is that correct. Again sorry but this is such a good tool that I need to understand it correctly.

Same issue. What i'll do is make that field blue and reupload so it'll be more clear that it's an input

Pot	600
Your Stack	1000
BB	250
Effective Stack	1000
Single Call Range	60.00%
Left to Act	1
Call %	60.00%
Fold %	40.00%
Win %	30.00%
Lose %	70.00%

If we shove and get folds	1600
If we shove, get called and win	2600
If we shove, get called and lose	0

EV of a Shove	1108
EV of a Fold	1000
Net EV of a Shove	108

EV as % of Stack	10.80%
EV as # of BBs	0.43
Risk of Busto	42.00%

RonFezBuddy on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Mon, 08 Aug 2011 21:02:48 -0400

discount said:

Downloaded the new spreadsheet and it's fixed the above problem thanks, but I think I've got another funny one if you could look at it thanks,

Pot 600

Your Stack 3750

BB 250

Effective Stack 1000

Single Call Range 37.00%

Left to Act 1

Call % 37.00%

Fold % 63.00%

Win % 29.00%

Lose % 71.00

If we shove and get folds 4350

If we shove, get called and win 5350

If we shove, get called and lose 2750

Results

EV of a shove 4037....................................?

EV of a fold 625.........................................?

Net EV of a shove -2213..............................should be 287 I think

EV as % of Stack -59.01%

EV as # of BBs -8.85

Risk of Busto 26.27%

The field above is a manual input of what your stack will be if you just fold. In this case it's 3750. Not sure where you got 625 from

Once you do that you get the following:

Pot 600

Your Stack 3750

BB 250

Effective Stack 1000

Single Call Range 37.00%

Left to Act 1

Call % 37.00%

Fold % 63.00%

Win % 29.00%

Lose % 71.00%

If we shove and get folds 4350

If we shove, get called and win 5350

If we shove, get called and lose 2750

EV of a Shove 4037

EV of a Fold 3750

Net EV of a Shove 287

EV as % of Stack 7.65%

EV as # of BBs 1.15

Risk of Busto 26.27%

RonFezBuddy on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Mon, 08 Aug 2011 19:44:33 -0400

Sorry my daughter had to go to the emergency room this weekend so we've been tied up. She fell and got a cut to the left of her eye requiring a bunch of stitches...been a bit hectic but i'll have a look tonight for sure.

discount on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Mon, 08 Aug 2011 15:48:53 -0400

bump

discount on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 14:22:08 -0400

Another one I think

Pot 600

Your stack 1000

BB 250

Effective stack 1000

Single call range 60.00%

Left to act 1

Call % 60.00%

Fold % 40.00%

Win % 30.00%

Lose % 70.00%

If we shove and get folds 1600

If we shove, get called and win 2600

If we shove, get called and lose 0

Results

EV of a shove 1108

EV of a fold 6250

Net EV of a shove -5142

EV as % of a shove -514.20%

EV as # of BBs -20.57

Risk of busto 42.00%

I haven't worked this one out it seems way off. If I'm understanding correctly the "Net EV of a shove" can never be a negative number higher than my stack, ie if my stack is the effective stack of say 2000 the Net EV of a shove can never be worse than -2000 and I'd have to lose every time to get the -2000, is that correct. Again sorry but this is such a good tool that I need to understand it correctly.

discount on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 13:56:53 -0400

Downloaded the new spreadsheet and it's fixed the above problem thanks, but I think I've got another funny one if you could look at it thanks,

Pot 600

Your Stack 3750

BB 250

Effective Stack 1000

Single Call Range 37.00%

Left to Act 1

Call % 37.00%

Fold % 63.00%

Win % 29.00%

Lose % 71.00

If we shove and get folds 4350

If we shove, get called and win 5350

If we shove, get called and lose 2750

Results

EV of a shove 4037....................................?

EV of a fold 625.........................................?

Net EV of a shove -2213..............................should be 287 I think

EV as % of Stack -59.01%

EV as # of BBs -8.85

Risk of Busto 26.27%

Working it out long hand I make the Net EV of a shove 287 and therefore EV as % of Stack is 7.65% and EV as # of BBs 1.15.

Sorry to be a pain, Roger.

RonFezBuddy on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 12:09:23 -0400

Hey...you found a bug in the spreadsheet which i just fixed. Sorry i had made some updates to the spreadsheet recently and left a testing formula in there by mistake. Here are the new results with the right formula. Sorry about that!

Pot 600

Your Stack 6250

BB 250

Effective Stack 1000

Single Call Range 60.00%

Left to Act 1

Call % 60.00%

Fold % 40.00%

Win % 30.00%

Lose % 70.00%

If we shove and get folds 6850

If we shove, get called and win 7850

If we shove, get called and lose 5250

EV of a Shove 6358

EV of a Fold 6250

Net EV of a Shove 108

EV as % of Stack 1.73%

EV as # of BBs 0.43

Risk of Busto 42.00%

discount on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:07:29 -0400

Thanks for the reply, kind of guessed that's what you'd say with other factors involved, was just hoping !!!!! One other thing can you look at the example here and explain the results, I'm in SB and have BB covered and folded to me. After posting blinds and antes SB 6250 BB 1000, blind 125/250/25 and nine handed.

Pot 600

Your Stack 6250

BB 250

Effective Stack 1000

Single Call Range 60.00%

Left to Act 1

Call % 60.00%

Fold % 40.00%

Win % 30.00%

Lose % 70.00%

If we shove and get folds 6850

If we shove, get called and win 7850

If we shove, get called and lose 5250

EV of a shove 4153

Ev of a fold 1000

Net EV of a shove 3153

EV as % of stack 50.45%

EV as # of BBs 12.61

Risk of Busto 42.00%

The pot is 600 and BB has 1000 behind so the total I can add to my stack is 1600 which is 6.4bb but it says my EV as # of BBs is 12.61. I don't get how my EV can be more than the actual amount available. I'm obviously missing something (not unusual) so thanks for any help. Great video by the way, learnt a lot even with this problem.

RonFezBuddy on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:06:41 -0400

Yeah I toyed with this concept a lot when creating the spreadsheet and I just couldn't come up with any formula because so much depends on where you are in the tournament and how big a risk you are facing. Sorry for no definitions but this is a case where the best answer is "it depends".

discount on shove, call, steal spreadsheet question

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 13:52:05 -0400

Obviously a great aid to give us the figures but how do I interpret them. For instance on shoving if my risk of busting is 30% what kind of EV am I looking for. Some things are obvious like risk of busting 10% with a an EV of +20% is an obvious shove so is there some kind of generalisation of the numbers when making the decision to shove or fold. I was just thinking something like if the EV% is at least half of the risk of busting % then shove, no mathematical basis of that obviously, just looking for a cut off point when it's not a shove.