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2/5 very interesting spot in live cash game
shoveIdareU
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March 2, 2014 - 4:24 am
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Ive recently been moved to a table so I barely have any reads on players.  I had just gotten moved from the must move table.  For the most part it seems like a tighter table post flop and averagley loose pre flop.  To start the hand I have around $900 and I have TT on the button.  UTG limps having around $270ish, another EP player who has around 1k limps, a MP player limps (cant remember stack but it wasnt too small or too big), and the CO limps with around $450ish.  I make it $30 on the button.  Every single person, including the small blind, calls back to the CO who weirdly makes it $100 all day.  Now he was at my must move and he was definitley on the tighter side but still came across to me as the player who would not get overly creative with very strong hands (meaning he would not limp JJ-AA in the CO).  It really smelled like AQs, AKs, or AKo to me. It seemed like he had a hand worthy of raising but was not set on getting his stack in the middle with it.  However I still figured he would run the hand pre flop only having $350ish behind.  It gets back to me and I take a look at the stacks behind me.  Im figuring I could jam probably having the best hand but I am always at least going to run against the CO's 4 bet and always be flipping with him at the very least.  I try to avoid those spots in cash games as much as I can.  But also the lighter stacks might now also find a reason to jump in the hand having committed $30 and only having $150ish-$200 behind.  I dont want to run TT against 3 and 4 hands so I elect to flat on the button.  I flat pretty much knowing every one is coming in behind me therefore I have major major implied odds with my hand and I'm on the button having the best position in the hand and if i have to fold flop its not a big deal.  I dont think it is necessary to just cram TT in pre flop in a cash game. Every one does call and we have $500 in the middle pre flop.  The flop comes 753cc.  SB checks.  UTG ships his $160 in excitedly.  The 1k stack just flats but doesnt look overly excited.  The CO folds and it now comes to me.  Again another tough spot.  I figure at this point the UTG jam is a a good draw or maybe pair and a draw.  Possibly a set but my instinct told me no.  Now the guy who flatted I did not think was super strong at all I felt like he had a made hand that connected with the board.  Theres so much money in the middle at this point I see no reason for a set to just flat especially with a wet board.  Most people like to just get it in at that point in my experience. So i put that seat on some kind of 7 or possibly 88-99.  Potentially a flush draw but his quick flat made it seem like he was made so I ruled out the draws.  I think a lot of draws in his spot would try to isolate the pot especially since he had everyone in the hand covered, even players behind him.  So thinking that if I just call I'm going up against a guarnateed draw anyway but knowing that the flatters hand range (with my read) is a made hand I elect to ship it in the middle.  I figure there is a great reason for me to try and create a side pot against a made hand because if he is indeed made hes drawing very thin against me and the side pot will be bigger than the main pot with me being a much bigger favorite to win that portion of the pot.  Also I thought, even though my raise all in was rather large most people would be too attracted to the size of the main pot to give up any type of made hand.  So i shove. The SB reluctantly ships his stack in the middle and its back to the flatter.  He tanks for a long time and folds reluctantly.  I end up winning the entire pot fading a straight draw and the nut flush draw.  This was a very weird spot so I am very curious to hear different opinions on pre flop strategies and post flop strategies. Thanks.

joesmoe88
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March 10, 2014 - 2:01 am
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I think the issue I have with flatting is that your implied odds are not nearly as high as you think. You dont really have a hand that flops the nuts that often and actually have some reverse implied odds when you end up getting your money in on a board exactly like this. What I like most is to click it back preflop that way you give your opponents a chance to make an even bigger mistake by flatting oop. The best case scenario here is that someone flats, co ships and you reship and are at worst flipping with a ton of dead money in the pot. While flipping may seem unneccesary I think it is much lower variance than flatting pre and seeing a flop 5 ways.

shoveIdareU
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March 12, 2014 - 11:32 am
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And this is why I post things like this.  What you said makes complete sense.  I actually agree with it 100%.  And i think the reverse implied odds may be higher than the implied odds in this case.

Foucault

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March 31, 2014 - 8:41 pm
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Agreed, nice post Joe. I also don't understand your aversion to getting it in against 3-4 people pre-flop. If you actually think that's an option, you're sure to be a favorite, so what's the problem?

Finally, raise bigger the first time around. I bet if you make it $40 you're still a favorite to get called in multiple spots. I've played in plenty of 2/5 games where I'd make it $50 here.

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