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600bb deep hand cold 4bet pot
joesmoe88
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October 10, 2014 - 4:26 am
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Ok so I talked this hand over with a close friend who I consider to be one of the best live no limit players in AC. We had a fairly large gap in the way we thought I should be playing this hand and that may have come from my pov being a more player specific/gameflow specific thought versus his more general reasoning. 

So this is a 2/5 game at borgata and its actually pretty terrible game selection wise. Including myself, there are 5 solid regs at the table one of which plays significantly higher than 2/5 but is just bored and having some drinks. The rest of the table has basically been a rotation of fish stopping by to drop off a buyin or two. Because of this, 3 of the 5 regs are sitting with over 2k and myself and the reg who usually plays higher have 3k-3500. Even being so deep we have managed to avoid each other for a solid 2-3 hours. 

Villain 1 is a young taggy girl who plays for a living and is on the nitty side. She opens to 20 with about 550 behind from utg and it folds to me utg3 with AKoff. I make it 65 and the main villain on my immediate left makes it 190. Given the situation, I think he knows my range here is really strong and i dont think its likely he is doing this light often if at all. I start to consider my options. I think there is a pretty big problem with AK in this spot because 1. Im oop and villain is a very good player and is accustomed to playing in really deep games 2. I think that even when I improve and alot of money goes in im often behind and when I improve and am ahead I dont really benefit from being really deep. For these reasons, I decide to just fold however the thought of 5 bet folding does briefly cross my mind. I think this is a much easier flat with basically any pair 22-QQ because you can flop the nuts and your hand is much more deceptive. AK just has no deception value and i think being this deep is actually a bad thing for my hand. If i think villain is capable of 4 betting as a bluff with something wide like j10s or AQ then I like 5 betting to something like 575 and making spr smaller so that he has less of a post flop advantage but given my thoughts on the dynamic and situation I dont think he is light here. 

Calling is probably an option against some players if I think they are likely to make big mistakes post flop but against this villain it just doesnt seem like a very good flat. Even if im flipping it will be very dificult to realize 48% equity from oop.

Thoughts?

Foucault

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October 10, 2014 - 10:54 am
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Pretty clear fold I think. AKs is a different story entirely but AKo is not a hand I'm that excited about when very deep. I don't even love 3-betting it against a tight UTG open, especially not for 3x+ her original open.

joesmoe88
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October 10, 2014 - 1:29 pm
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Yea I thought so. Turns out the guy who disagrees with me was actually the player who 4bet me and also happens to be my roommate which I think is even more reason why this is a fold.

joesmoe88
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October 10, 2014 - 1:37 pm
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And to clarify I say that because I think he is playing straightforward against me which makes his range very strong in this spot.

huge
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October 10, 2014 - 11:55 pm
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Joe I just told you I wanted some deep-cash coaching – I didn't realize I'd just need to look to the forums for it…

 

Given that we're all agreed (ie you me & Andrew – a grouping I find very amusing in a deep-stacked cash-game discussion) that this is a fold 600BB deep, and given that I basically can't count past 200BB, what happens as you get less and less mega-deep?  And is it a linear progression (ie maybe at some stack size you would flat, at some other stack size you would 5-bet-fold and at some much lower size you would just shove or 5-bet-get-it-in)?  Or is it more complicated than that based on what 5-bet size leaves him room to shove efficiently or what post-flop play is likely to look like etc? 

 

As I hinted on twitter, above 150-200BB I start to get uncomfortable and underconfident even though I'm typically playing $3-5 against people I know I can outplay with more comfortable stack depths.  This leads to me wanting to leave games when I've got $2K in front of me, which are generally not games I should be leaving, probably.

joesmoe88
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October 11, 2014 - 4:15 am
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Id definitely be curious to see how Andrew answers this question. I think for me and I would probably be jamming 100bb deep against this opponent. Probably 5 bet calling at 150bb. 200bb im flatting. I dont think im ever really 5 bet folding because i dont think he has enough bluffs in his range if we are between 300-600bb. If the positions are different or the dynamic was slightly more aggressive I can consider 5 bet folding but not here. I think this is a fold above say 300bb.

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