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Are great poker players born or built?
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Dead7s
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July 17, 2012 - 4:45 pm
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So i'm looking at the different threads and I hear some of the pros on the podcast and I started wondering if great poker players are born with an innate ability like Stu Unger or Amarillo Slim or can a schlub like me learn enough to compete at a high level. Or are some of these guys just BSing about winning their first tourney after reading Super System.

 

I don't think is the rule but what separates guys that have the light go on for them right away and get the concepts and guys like me that play and play and play and feel like it's one step forward and two steps back. Don't get me wrong, I love playing and have improved my game but I feel like I work awful hard to still be struggling the way I am.

"…if he fails, he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."-Teddy Roosevelt

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Dead7s
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July 17, 2012 - 4:51 pm
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Hey…I got bumped up to flounder from Guppy.

"…if he fails, he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."-Teddy Roosevelt

bennymacca
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July 17, 2012 - 8:10 pm
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I think it is like any non-trivial endeavour, it is a combination of both. 

 

some people will have a natural ability, that through training, will make them very good. some people will be naturally horrible and training will get them to middle of the road somewhere. some will be a lost cause from the getgo 😀

 

think of being a sprinter or a chess player or something. great training can get you a long way but you have to have some natural ability

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praetor
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July 17, 2012 - 11:26 pm
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I agree with Benny a combination of both, you need the correct tools in the shed to get started in poker. From there it is up to you to improve and become a better player.  Emotion and control has a lot to do with it.

"Your either in Sheen's Korner or your with the trolls."

bennymacca
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July 18, 2012 - 1:24 am
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praetor said:

I agree with Benny a combination of both, you need the correct tools in the shed to get started in poker. From there it is up to you to improve and become a better player.  Emotion and control has a lot to do with it.

completely agree with your comment about emotional control – in fact i think this is possibly the number one factor because no matter how good you are, if tilt issues stop you from playing near your best, or dumping huge sums playing PLO after a tourney win, you will never gain the momentum that you need. 

 

i think one of the natural abilities you have to have is being able to take risks. that does not mean having bad bankroll management etc, but it does mean that you have to be able to pull the trigger late in a tournament. 

 

that risk taking extends to investing in your poker too – i have a mate that is also an engineer like me, so he makes ok money, and he kind of likes poker and wants to get better at it, but he just put $200 online and started playing the 2NL cash games, because he wanted to make sure he could beat those games before he moved up. Although i talked to him about opportunity cost and the fact that learning to beat 2NL will not equip you to beat 50NL, he was naturally a risk averse person and did not see the risk of maybe losing a few hundred in the short term at higher stakes as worth it. 

 

of course you also need to have drive to want to get better, though that is a universal trait and not just to do with poker. 

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July 18, 2012 - 2:15 am
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i think one of the natural abilities you have to have is being able to take risks. that does not mean having bad bankroll management etc, but it does mean that you have to be able to pull the trigger late in a tournament. 
 

Yep….I can’t agree more here. I find this line more or less separates the great from the good.

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Donskey
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July 18, 2012 - 4:17 am
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I suppose some aspects of poker are just not quantifiable.

 

Learning the maths of poker, positional play, stack sizes, bet sizing etc are all areas of poker that practically anyone can learn and implement.

 

But how do you gauge table dynamics, instinct, or just a plain feeling on the hand you have or the range or hand your opponent has? Can that be taught?

 

I've noticed that the more I play, the more vids I watch, the more I watch the good and great players, that I'm getting better and better at picking off bluffs and bluffing and overbetting when it's warranted etc.

 

Is that teachable? Or does it come with playing, watching and implementing and then learning from the experiences of what is working and what isn't?

 

Yes, poker is a maths game, but there is also the human element. Every hand you're involved with, there is another person(s) on the other end of that hand with emotions & fears that can affect the line or result of a hand. How do you learn that? how is that part of the game assessed? how do you teach that?

 

Blah, I'm blabbering too much, I don't even know what I'm talking about.

bennymacca
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July 18, 2012 - 4:49 am
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100% agree don. it is a human game because it is a game of incomplete information. if cards were face up it would have been solved by now

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DaNta5tiC
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July 18, 2012 - 5:42 am
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You could argue that some people pick up the game faster then others, but that doesn't essentially mean that they are born to play poker. I believe that some people can be more creative with hands which will make them better poker players over the long run where they will be better at mixing up their game then others. Anyone that puts the work and thought into poker could be good at any moment. I do think that maybe their are some better poker players who don't have the money to play and they could possibly be some of the best in the world, if you look at poker players backgrounds: Allot of players come from Video Game backgrounds or something like Chess professionals. I believe anyone who can think on a different level then others could be very good at poker.

bennymacca
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July 18, 2012 - 6:12 am
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Stuart posted this in the skype thread. not sure if he knew about this thread but it fits perfectly. 

 

it is from a phil galfond blog, if i find the link ill post it

 

Phil Galfond:

Nearly everyone thinks that they are already good at poker, or that with just a little bit of work, they can become great… either because they are good at math, or they watch poker avidly, or they played a sick hand one time.

There's a catch-22 with predicting one's own poker ability. Some of the best traits a good pro poker player can have are self-awareness and humility. They let the player know when they're on and off their game, what they need to improve on (and that they need to improve), when someone is better than them, when someone has something to teach them. They allow a player to make responsible and prudent decisions about poker in their lives. The self aware, humble people who will often be great at poker aren't sure they can cut it, and are often the last to make the jump and play full time or move up in stakes.

Then there are people with no self-awareness. They think they are great and that they will definitely succeed. Those with no humility think that books, training videos, and other players all have very little to teach them. These are the people that will often fail, and the people who don't know that they lack these qualities, even as they read this paragraph.

I've narrowed predictors of poker skill down to three major categories:

Deductive Logic
Psychology, social adeptness, understanding how people think and how they are affected by things (considerate people)
Math / Statistics
Those are in order of importance, in my opinion. Yes, math is last (a distant last actually, though still clearly makes the list).

There are also three minor categories, which are less about predicting poker aptitude and potential, and more about predicting how likely you are to reach and use that potential:

Competitive Drive (especially with oneself)
Humility and Self-Awareness
Self Control
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July 18, 2012 - 8:19 am
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I have to admit, math is not my strong suit (pardon the pun). And my risk taking is getting better but still too sofft. And through slow and sometimes patient progress I've improved my game a ton to think more about factors that wouldn't even occur to me. Listenting to the podcasts already had an impact recently.

I was in the big blind with a weak ace. I don't remember what the blinds were but we were still kind of early. I was playing well having shown down some strong hands already. The button wasn't a bad player but I'm sure was opening light. The villain raised and when it came around to me I remember thinking I don't want to play this weak A out of position. If I just call then I'm playing with my fingers crossed that I get a good flop. If I fold then I'm telling him he can push me around in the blinds. But if I raise I can add a few blinds to my stack. Then I thought about how much of a raise it would take to push him off his hand if he actually had anything near the top of his range. I went 4x his raise and he folded. It was the right line to take and not just because it worked but because it involved more than just the cards. I ended up busting out but knowing that some of this is seeping in makes me feel like I'm investing in my poker and not just playing. 

 

I like what Benny posted from Phil Galfond. This game can humble you. 

"…if he fails, he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."-Teddy Roosevelt

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July 19, 2012 - 4:17 pm
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How much of the game is luck? I took 2nd in a $2 tourney last night but had to win some races that I normally lose including once with 55 vs AK and I cracked AA with JJ by rivering a set. I don't feel bad about the 5s win–I was ahead and preflop. But the river J against AA, is that considered luck or variance? Is giving yourself a chance to be lucky part of your game?

"…if he fails, he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."-Teddy Roosevelt

bennymacca
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July 20, 2012 - 11:01 am
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found the link for phil galfond's post on the above

 

there is also a TON more in there which is awesome

…..your-life/

Zhengix_Khaan
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February 3, 2013 - 12:58 pm
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i had a super indepth response to this all typed out but im on my gf's stupid mac and i hit a normal combo of buttons for a pc and it caused the browser to go back and i lost it all.. so if my articulation is lacking now its cuz im lazy after losing the 15min…ROFL

Donskey said:

I suppose some aspects of poker are just not quantifiable

But how do you gauge table dynamics, instinct, or just a plain feeling on the hand you have or the range or hand your opponent has? Can that be taught?

I've noticed that the more I play, the more vids I watch, the more I watch the good and great players, that I'm getting better and better at picking off bluffs and bluffing and overbetting when it's warranted etc.

Is that teachable? Or does it come with playing, watching and implementing and then learning from the experiences of what is working and what isn't?

Don what you speaking of, and directly mentioned, i classify as INSTINCTS.  These are skills, often happening subconsciously, that lead to that mystical concept of “feel” that many of the greats often talk about. Can these be learned and developed, surely. However, the depth and breadth of these skills seem to be governed by the level of awareness and perception people use when learning them and subsequently the level of awarness and perception they consciously exert each playing session.

For those who do not agree i offer a small example. Remember when you began playing and couldnt fathom being able to know what someones realtive hand strength was without a flop or turn? …. how on earth could i do that???, you thought.

Now compare that to what you now understand and what happens when you see a guy raise in a loose game UTG 3x with 8 runners?  * * * ding ding ding * * * ALARM BELLS

I wholly believed these can be learned and developed but it can take a lot of experience, effort, and determination to do so. And as with the above example, with continual experience, they become innate like breathing and subconsciously you know somthing is off, even without knowing why at first.

bennymacca said:

Phil Galfond:

“I've narrowed predictors of poker skill down to three major categories:
Deductive Logic
Psychology, social adeptness, understanding how people think and how they are affected by things (considerate people)
Math / Statistics
Those are in order of importance, in my opinion. Yes, math is last (a distant last actually, though still clearly makes the list).

There are also three minor categories, which are less about predicting poker aptitude and potential, and more about predicting how likely you are to reach and use that potential:

Competitive Drive (especially with oneself)
Humility and Self-Awareness
Self Control"

I do agree with a lot of what Phil Galfond says, however i think there is an element he is missing, that im not sure he may mention later on in his writings. I call it….

MENTAL FORTITURE: The ability to continually focus on the task at hand with optimal concentration; blantantly disregarding past obstacles, while harnessing the essential lessons of obstacles as adjustments in relation to the task at hand.

Compare this to shooting in basketball. The best players shoot around 50%. This means they miss half or more of their attempts. Therefore, dwelling on any single shot is counterproductive because you realize there will be many more opporunities in the future. HOWEVER, if said shot was forced in an awkward way or was just a ball hoggin street move, then the best players take note that that type of shot is poor and not only hurts their immediate results; but can often lead to bad habits and tendencies, which alienate them productive playing and winning.

Therefore, they clear their minds of the actual shot itself, yet they note not to take that type of shot in the future. They dont waste physical and emotional energy dwelling on the past missed shot. They clear the mechanism and move forward, adjusting to what they have learned.

Poker players can indeed learn a great deal from this:

Ok….. so you 3 bet super light on 3 limpers or you lost half your stack because you reraised the turn with middle pair-A kicker into a shortstack bettin 1/2 pot, but that half pot was half of his remaining stack. So, note the error and then clear the emotional mechanism for the next hand. Allowing it to cloud your judgement on the following hands will only result in compounding errors as time goes on. Its your choice to allow mistakes, which we all make in EVERY SESSION we play, to hang above you and be an excuse to dictate further action.

Instead i would suggest to use these mishaps as self motivation. You make a bad move… Remebe that awful play for what it taught you NOT to do and now make a game out of it.  How long can i play the best poker i can play…. then time it. Then maybe write it down and keep a running tally. Hopefully, sooner or later you will not even need to write it down because it will have become an engrained habit such as ranging will be.

It would seem that the best individuals in all competitive endeavors share this sort of singular focus. That is why in sports or business you often hear discussion of the calm, cool, and collected archtype. They are observant, yet wholly focused on the task at hand and any obstacles in their path they welcome, because it challenges them to adjust; therefore allowing them become stronger in their fields, which gives them a mental skill advantage to rise above rest.

Dont take my word for it. Try it — test it as you should any theory before accepting it. All i can guarantee is that it will work in your favor, even if you fail because you will be flexing mental muscles. wink

FkCoolers
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February 3, 2013 - 1:24 pm
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I think Galfond nailed it and I wouldn't even try to give my own answer after reading his. 

Also, he's talking about mental fortitude and tilt control when he says “self control”. 

I don't think he left out a single thing. 

Zhengix_Khaan
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February 3, 2013 - 1:58 pm
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coolers if people didnt discuss things and offer opinoins, then offerings like Galfonds wouldnt exist.

 

Philosophies are much like playing poker. While no one can for certain ascribe which is the best; there are many approaches which work for differing individuals. How you play shorstacked is different from how Brunson, Bigdog, or Aznallin plays them. Not one way is always correct. But, they fit the indviduals style which relates to his or her experience, confidence, and situational awarness.

Therefore, I offered up a point which i dont see much talked about and I find helpful for everyone; IN EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE, not just poker. I know this particular mentality has helped me obtain almost every goal in my life.

And for that, i wanted to share it with my TPE fam cool

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February 3, 2013 - 2:52 pm
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Hey guys, great post.. and comments

Def agree Khaan, it doesn't matter if he mentioned this or not, its always good to comment and provide further points to what has already been said.

I've actually been giving this some thought lately, and this is the conclusion that I've reached:

Poker is not like anything else that would require a natural ability or proficiency for yo to succeed, not like a sport that is. What I mean by that is that some people are born to be ..say sprinters. They have a natural ability to run faster and thus, with the appropriate training, might reach a level of competence far beyond the average, only competing at the highest levels. If you were born with short legs, or you just run funny 🙂 because that's how you were born, well, you can get some training and eventually you will be able to perform decently, but i recon you wont be winning any medals. This is true for any physical activities.

Poker on the other hand, is a mental game. Besides the mental proficiency and understanding of the game, there is also the wild card, which is what we call “luck”. I believe this element is what leads most of the players to believe they are great at it and can play with the best at the highest level. You wont be going to play a 1on1 vs Jordan just because you made a couple of baskets, right? This is something a lot of new players don't really understand.

I believe that since Poker is a mental game, of course it is easier for some people than it is for other, on  the same principle as the sprinter. Some are born with a natural tendency to read game flow and dynamics flawlessly, while some of us need to work hard at it. Some are able to grasp the fundamentals of the game in a matter of days and be crushing micros in a matter of months, others need to really work at it.

Apart from all of this, is your attitude and emotions towards this. So its basically how well you can learn, how much you need to, and how you cope with it. If a person is a tilt monkey and can never control his emotions, he/she will have almost no use for poker, because this prevents you from learning and understanding your mistakes, thus, making you a better poker player.

It's like they say, there is an advantage to losing, you get to learn a lot from your mistakes. If you are not learning from your mistakes, you are not learning at all. Sure you will be able to win a few tourneys here and there, but the higher path of poker will elude you.

Just some thoughts.. Cheers 😀

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