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$11cubed $5k on Stars - AK in sb, with top pair in 3bet pot
mcgcanwin2
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October 10, 2012 - 7:02 am
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Villain is a random running 27/11 after only 11 hands. We are about 15-20 from the money

 

Whats the best line? Call and reevaluate turn? Jam? Fold? 

 

Poker Stars $10+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t400/t800 Blinds + t100 – 8 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

UTG: BB = 41.6, t33307
UTG+1: BB = 20.3, t16260
MP1: BB = 42.5, t33998
MP2: BB = 100.4, t80326
CO: BB = 16.3, t13054
BTN: BB = 29.2, t23321
Hero (SB): BB = 37.6, t30083
BB: BB = 57.6, t46086

Pre Flop: (t2000) Hero is SB with K of spades A of spades
2 folds, MP1 raises to t2400, 3 folds, Hero raises to t4800, 1 fold, MP1 calls t2400

Flop: (t11200) 4 of clubs J of hearts K of clubs (2 players)
Hero bets t5264, MP1 raises to t12000, HERO???

duggs
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October 10, 2012 - 7:24 am
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Im really torn, v him i think flatting might almost be best, as played this is AK/JJ a shit ton so i fold flop since this guy wont be bluffing us.

swet1
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October 10, 2012 - 10:22 am
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If we flat the raise on the flop we will have t16800 of the t30083 we started with in the pot, essentially commiting us. This is a jam or fold spot.

On this flop we have 75% equity vs his pfr range (11%)…I’m getting it in here.

hawkeyeK9
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October 10, 2012 - 12:02 pm
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I like a bigger 3bet pre. 

As far as are decision on the flop, do you have any other info on villian? Villian is committing himself imo and could definitely be same hand or a set. I think I need more info to make the best decision but seems like a fold as played. I can't disagree with Swet1 though, he has a good point but I am giving you my thoughts.

swet1
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October 10, 2012 - 2:36 pm
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In game I would check his stats for flatting a 3bet oop pre which would help define his range, but with only 11 hands on him it’s likely zero. 

We may run into the top of his range here but flush draws are also part of it and could be played this way by the villian.

duggs
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October 10, 2012 - 6:06 pm
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i meant flatting pre

duggs
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October 10, 2012 - 6:09 pm
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someone who 3x's pre with these stack sizes does not ever min raise a flush draw, this is JJ/AK 100% of the time. i really think as played this is a fold, but i think we should flat pre since his 4bet range will crush us, and he may fold weaker Aces like A10s AJ AQ that he opens, or he flats us and we only get value post on Axx boards,

swet1
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October 10, 2012 - 9:40 pm
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duggs said:

someone who 3x's pre with these stack sizes does not ever min raise a flush draw, this is JJ/AK 100% of the time. i really think as played this is a fold, but i think we should flat pre since his 4bet range will crush us, and he may fold weaker Aces like A10s AJ AQ that he opens, or he flats us and we only get value post on Axx boards,

Ahh flat pre…I see your point. My main point to the op was that as played calling to reevaluate turn isn't the best line. I'd be interested to see how it plays out.

hawkeyeK9
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October 10, 2012 - 10:37 pm
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good points by both of you.

Turbulence
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October 13, 2012 - 9:57 am
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You've made this a difficult spot for yourself with your OOP 3bet sizing, even IP I'm not a fan of the 2x 3bet, OOP I think you really need to be 2.5 – 3.1x to really narrow his range. by 2x 3betting OOP you're pricing in pretty much all hands and giving the villain position in an inflatted pot for cheap. he could easily also have QcTc, AcJc, AcQc, KJ, JJ, 44 etc etc

 

If you flat, what are you going to do on a blank turn?

 

I know this is a 3 bet pot with fairly large blinds so the CBet doesnt need to be too big to get the job done most times. However, this is a very wet board which makes your Cbet size look a little weak like you might have AQ QQ TT. If you had lead out for say 6400 – 7000 and he raises you it'd be a lot easier to consider a fold.

 

In summary, I think that your betsizing OOP has made the whole hand much tougher for you and a lot easier for villain to put pressure on you.

aka Prophead340 aka Prophead2000 aka Turbulence_1

PocketFives Profile: .....urbulence/

florianm1
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October 16, 2012 - 8:27 am
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i like flatting pre here in this spot.

against a loose passive player his range is to strong to 3bet/get in almost 40BB.

 

flatting lets his whole range in and you are playing a very disguised hand and can get lots of value if hit top pair.

if you 3bet i def 3bet bigger OOP to 2.7-3.2x his raise.

 

flop play:

after you bet and and SPR of about 1 the only question is wheter to fold or jam

i think he is getting it in here if we jam with 44,JJ,AK,AcQc,AcJc,AcTc(if he raises that pre) and against that range we need 38% to break even(cEV) and we only have 31% equity vs the above range. taking Bubble factor into account we need even more equity prob closer to 40% to make a +$EV play here

 

so i am in the bet/fold camp against this opponent.  

 

there is another point i would like to discuss about sizing:

if you make it pre so small you should also make it on the flop smaller. especially if you believe villain is on a draw

on the flop the pot is 11200 so if we bet about 3900 our opponent gets about 3.9:1 on a call. if he plays his draws passively he is still making a -EV play as he needs 4.2:1 to make a break even call. So if we bet and our opponent calls there is 19000 in the pot and we have 21k behind to either jam the turn or c/f if clubs hits and we believe our opponent has that.

even more important if our opponent is passive and only comes over the top of our bet with 2pair and sets we can fold and save almost 2BB

 

cheers

 

P.S.: no guarantee that all the numbers are right

theginger45

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October 21, 2012 - 10:12 pm
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3bet a little bigger pre, around 6700 or so. We're getting flatted nearly 100% of the time with this sizing vs a passive villain and we don't want that OOP.

 

That said, passive villain is rarely pure bluffing flop but his value and semibluff ranges are wide enough to make this a standard 3b shove on the flop imo. I hatehatehate flatting pre OOP and I think folding flop is really nitty. Considering villain is almost never folding to our 3bet we really can't just give him credit for better than TPTK on flop.

duggs
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October 22, 2012 - 5:00 am
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theginger45 said:

3bet a little bigger pre, around 6700 or so. We're getting flatted nearly 100% of the time with this sizing vs a passive villain and we don't want that OOP.

 

That said, passive villain is rarely pure bluffing flop but his value and semibluff ranges are wide enough to make this a standard 3b shove on the flop imo. I hatehatehate flatting pre OOP and I think folding flop is really nitty. Considering villain is almost never folding to our 3bet we really can't just give him credit for better than TPTK on flop.

A passive villain by definition has a wider calling range and a narrower raising/betting range by definition. what hands in his value range to we beat on flop given his preflop sizing and flop sizing?

duggs
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October 22, 2012 - 5:03 am
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also nitty folds where the villian has a defined value range and we just hope he is going nuts with semibluffs that have really good equity against us is never good. why do you hate flatting pre, he has a fairly well defined range and his 4bet range crushes us, all we do is reduce the SPR and fold out weaker holding that have RIO v our hand.

bennymacca
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October 22, 2012 - 6:02 am
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theginger45 said:

3bet a little bigger pre, around 6700 or so. We're getting flatted nearly 100% of the time with this sizing vs a passive villain and we don't want that OOP.

 

That said, passive villain is rarely pure bluffing flop but his value and semibluff ranges are wide enough to make this a standard 3b shove on the flop imo. I hatehatehate flatting pre OOP and I think folding flop is really nitty. Considering villain is almost never folding to our 3bet we really can't just give him credit for better than TPTK on flop.

agree with this, because it is a 3x pre we can probably assume villain is a fish, so that means he would be flatting his whole range, and could  be raising worse kings here for value, a whole bunch of broadways that have straight/flush draws

theginger45

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October 22, 2012 - 11:14 pm
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bennymacca said:

theginger45 said:

3bet a little bigger pre, around 6700 or so. We're getting flatted nearly 100% of the time with this sizing vs a passive villain and we don't want that OOP.

 

That said, passive villain is rarely pure bluffing flop but his value and semibluff ranges are wide enough to make this a standard 3b shove on the flop imo. I hatehatehate flatting pre OOP and I think folding flop is really nitty. Considering villain is almost never folding to our 3bet we really can't just give him credit for better than TPTK on flop.

agree with this, because it is a 3x pre we can probably assume villain is a fish, so that means he would be flatting his whole range, and could  be raising worse kings here for value, a whole bunch of broadways that have straight/flush draws

Yeah this exactly, we beat KQ, other random Kx hands he feels like raising because lol he haz toppest pair, all kinds of club/broadway combos, etc. It's an $11 tournament, let's not overthink things. Villain is bad. Making a habit of folding TPTK to a single raise from a bad player is not something we like.

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