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April 6, 2013
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From last night's donk adventures
Villain is 24/24/25 over 30 hands, is a SN, and only playing 2 tables. Made the 3b instantly. We are ITM, there are about 90 left of 1650 or so starting. I didn't play a hand the last orbit, but was active in the 20 hands before that. Haven't been tangling with this villain, I was beating up on guys to my right, as was he.
– There is a lot of money in the pot
– I think this is one of the better villains left in the tourney, dudes on my right are bad all the way around (even worse than me!). So I don't think this guy is going to make huge range error here.
Poker Stars $10+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t1500/t3000 Blinds + t300 – 9 players – View hand 2191419
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
MP1: BB = 43.6, t130856
MP2: BB = 36.3, t108804
CO: BB = 4.4, t13096
Hero (BTN): BB = 32.5, t97456
SB: BB = 16.4, t49184
BB: BB = 37.9, t113619
UTG: BB = 17.6, t52934
UTG+1: BB = 18.8, t56403
UTG+2: BB = 41.2, t123558
Pre Flop: (t7200) Hero is BTN with 3
3
6 folds, Hero raises to t6000, 1 fold, BB raises to t15000
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Seems like a really clear call to me. I don't think you can fold after 4bing since Villain could jam plenty of unpaired hands.
July 3, 2010
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I'd either call or fold pre. Probably call. If the people on your right are bad as you say it seems really stupid to get into a high variance spot with the best player at the table.
February 18, 2013
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Personally I hate preflop raising from late position with the small pairs, I'm hoping for folds to just take the blinds and if I get re-raised I'm outta there. If you call pre-flop, the flop comes 3 overs and he continuation bets it's a tough decision to continue with the hand. I've been in too many situations where playing small pairs when ITM has ruined my chances to go deep I'd sooner just throw them away pre unless I know the blinds are from nittsville, tennessee. But maybe I'm playing them wrong by not calling the PF re-raise?
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December 6, 2012
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Al29 said:
Personally I hate preflop raising from late position with the small pairs, I'm hoping for folds to just take the blinds and if I get re-raised I'm outta there. If you call pre-flop, the flop comes 3 overs and he continuation bets it's a tough decision to continue with the hand. I've been in too many situations where playing small pairs when ITM has ruined my chances to go deep I'd sooner just throw them away pre unless I know the blinds are from nittsville, tennessee. But maybe I'm playing them wrong by not calling the PF re-raise?
Nothing wrong with “hoping for folds” when you're opening from the button. I raise hoping for folds with a hell of a lot less than small pairs. Yes, you will generally give up on them if you don't flop a set, but between the times you win without a contest and the times you flop a set, I'd say that yes you are giving up a lot of value.
May 30, 2012
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maybe its a leak but im inclined to flat a slightly stronger and more playable range and just fold hands up to 55 here.
August 23, 2012
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Another option that I personally like is 4b jamming if BB is capable of 3betting light. Small pairs are the best hand to 4b jam in this spot because they do not play well postflop and have good equity even vs his value range. While we are getting good odds to call, we may not have enough implied odds to set-mine because his range is wide due to the positions. 4b fold looks like burning money here so I would either fold or 4b jam.
May 30, 2012
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not a fan of shipping 44 here as he more or less plays perfectly v us. it defo caps our range pretty hard.
April 6, 2013
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Very interesting responses.
“I don't think you could fold after 4b'ing” — Foucault
Yeah especially after I wagered all the available wagering units
I agree with Duggs here that it caps my range but I looked at the pot size and what I was risking and seemed like my best option. He made a good call with AJo for the reason I am capped and he is never dominated since I induce AQ/JJ and better.
I really didn't even consider flatting an option here. I don't see how I am going to play well enough to make it profitable and its the best way for him to gain momentum on me at this table and take away my fish. Me calling and folding post I mean, which is going to happen so often when I call.
July 10, 2012
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I'm not a huge fan of 4b or 4b jamming, i think its too high variance of a move, since we are at best flipping a large majority of the time, and considering your assessment of the table, i prefer the more passive route.
So, fold or call? I know i say fold now, since i just feel like too much of the time we set mine, miss, and give up. But in game i probably call and hope to trip up and potentially take out the only threat at the table. However I dont think that we get paid off too many times when we flop our set, since his positional raise doesn't always mean he is nutted here.
July 6, 2012
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Maybe I'm crazy, but I am 4bet/calling here against a good player. the reason I like a 4 bet instead of a 4 bet jam(though I do like that you applied the max pressure), is that it looks so much stronger, than just ripping. And a competent player should know you're not folding after you put in 1/3 or almost 1/3 of your stack.
I also don't think he made a good call, if you did indeed, 4 bet jam. He is only dominating a very small portion of your 4 bet jam range, and flipping or in a 60/40 against the rest. (unless you have been getting hyper aggro, which it doesn't seem that you have)
Knowing that a good player, is going to be 3 betting your button opens, much lighter than a hand like AJ, makes this an auto 4 bet, or 4bet jam with these stack sizes imo. I can't see finding a fold in this spot, and am prob 4 betting or jamming any pair, KQo+, A9s+ against this villian.
If he wakes up with a monster, oh well. I think folding to the 3 bet(though maybe higher variance) pre is super nitty, against a competent reg.
May 30, 2012
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i think he jams a slightly wider range than he calls with, but he definitely isnt folding better hands to a 4bet than he calls the jam with. I think that just r/f is best here. in terms of our range there is a bunch of stuff we are happy raise/calling v his range and a bunch of better hands to bluff with and I pretty much wont have a 4bet jam range here since its going to allow him to make so few mistakes.
also imo AJ is a pretty standard call here imo. he will range us on A8s-AJo and like somewhere between 22-1010 and 77-1010 depending on how aggro he expects us to be.
regarding 4b/call it seems super optimistic to get 33bb in and expect to be doing ok with 33. his range for jamming will never ever include dominated hands imo and so our equity against his range will be greatly diminished.
I also feel that people are probably overestimating the range this villain 3bets v us. he will likely be folding alot here since this is actually his worst seat for him if he views us as another good.
I think we also need to consider the required edge we need to be willing to get 32bb in on a soft table like this. like are we willing to get it in for a +.2bb or +.4bb edge?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Heh, I guess I misinterpreted the “4b/fold” part of your subject line.
Gareth Chantler said:
Very interesting responses.
“I don't think you could fold after 4b'ing” — Foucault
Yeah especially after I wagered all the available wagering units
April 6, 2013
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haha im the fish for just straight ruling out calling
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December 6, 2012
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usedstars said:
I'm not a huge fan of 4b or 4b jamming, i think its too high variance of a move, since we are at best flipping a large majority of the time, and considering your assessment of the table, i prefer the more passive route.
So, fold or call? I know i say fold now, since i just feel like too much of the time we set mine, miss, and give up. But in game i probably call and hope to trip up and potentially take out the only threat at the table. However I dont think that we get paid off too many times when we flop our set, since his positional raise doesn't always mean he is nutted here.
If you think his range is wide enough to consider 4betting, even if you ultimately rule it out, then you don't have to fold unimproved to every flop bet. All those unpaired hands in his range are going to miss the flop more often than not.
August 23, 2012
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Duggs, I think you are reacting way too passively vs BB's 3b. You said that AJ and 88-TT are pretty standard calls, but I see them as a very easy 4b induce or 4b jams depending on the dynamic vs the 3bettor. It is also very profitable to 4b jam small pairs in these spots. They play terribly postflop at this stack depth, but they play very well as jams with fold equity and good equity (~40%) vs a calling range due to the combinatorics of paired and unpaired hands. Add a reasonably high % of 3b bluffs in his range due to positions and 4b shoving 33 is very profitable.
It is similar to open jamming small pairs from late position for slightly more bbs than you would normally. You do not want to have to play them postflop, but they still have value so often the most +EV play is to open jam them. This also works for playing HU as well. It is very common for regs to open jam 55- with 30bb or less because it is just more profitable.
I understand that you don't want to have a 4b jam range in this spot, but it won't be exploitable unless villain has extensive history with you to know that you only do this with small pairs. The way villain would exploit Hero with that information is by calling the jam with all of the suited connectors that he 3b bluffed with as well. There is almost a 0% chance that villain will exploit us in that way if our 4b jamming range is only 66-. In my mind, this spot is without a doubt a very easy 4b jam.
June 11, 2012
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i flat and outplay the hell out of him (or myself) in position 
May 30, 2012
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I ment that in the BB shoes they are pretty std 3b/c given our capped range. but im completely happy flatting a bunch of hands v his 3bet. especially as his range is polarised and we dont have any assumptions on his 4betting tendencies. and people tend to play very exploitably in 3bet pots.
against SN reg opponent im not inclined to fold this at all. if gameflow wise you think he's full of it i rather like 4b jamming it down his throat; if as you said you believe he is doing it for value, I like cutting out his ability to play perfectly vs us by flatting/jamming over a ton of his cbets while we are in position.
some posters have correctly pointed out that we'd prob induce hands like JJ, QQ+ here and also AQ, AK type hands. this fact does NOT necessarily mean we should be 4b-inducing a hand like 33! others itt have said (usually correctly) that 33 is tough to play unimproved but actually in this spot it's not. our SPR is going to be pretty low, especially once villain puts in (what i assume will be) a 1/3 pot cbet. instead of 4b jamming pre id likely flat, then jam over cbets on safer boards. it saves us two cards in a coinflip scenario (when he folds) and dramatically cuts down on his ability to play perfectly vs our capped range.
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