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$1600 ME Venetian
3for3
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November 18, 2018 - 3:23 pm
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Still on first level, blinds 100-100, no ante. I open to 300 ATcc from Lojack, only button calls. Stacks are 30K. Villain appears to be a little loose/stationy, but too early for a solid read

Flop is Ad9s8c. I bet 400, Villain calls. Turn is Jd, I bet 900, Villain calls. River is Td, I check and call a bet of 2300.

Thoughts on my line?  

poomaa
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November 18, 2018 - 9:34 pm
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That deep against loose villain in position, your line feels about right.  Does he snap the turn call?  When it’s so deep his range can be pretty wide to call both flop and turn I think (any A, KQ-7, QJ-7, 77, 66 maybe) which means you can check turn to accomplish similar goal potentially.  Sizing on his river bet seems solid to slightly bluffy given your lead check.  What do you think?

rppoker
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November 19, 2018 - 3:08 am
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I prefer tight play very early in a tournament, so I’d say ATs is at the bottom of my range from the lojack. So I don’t have a problem with the open, although I would not disagree with a fold either. As played I agree with your bet after the flop. After you get called I think I would check the turn to control the size of the pot. I don’t want to play a huge hand with top pair mediocre kicker. Plus, after he has called your post flop bet and the turn hits, it seems to me that there are a lot of cards on the board that hit his button range (as in, he called your open and did not 3bet preflop).

When the river hits, you have two pair and while that is normally strong, with four to a straight and a possible diamond flush out there, your hand is kind of a bluff catcher. The straight would have been extremely lucky if he got there since he would have been chasing a gutter. Calling two streets after the flop and turn hoping to get there with the inside straight draw seems bad, but as you said you don’t have enough data yet to say confidently how he is playing. The way he played the hand to this point certainly would make sense if he had an 8 or a 9 with two diamonds (he calls with a pair and a backdoor flush possibility after the flop, calls again after the turn in which he now has a legitimate flush draw, and then he bets the river when he gets there). Or he could just be fishy floating two streets (not likely, but you never know) and then he bets the river when you show weakness. Your decision seems close given the scary board, but I don’t have a problem with your river call.

So to summarize:

Preflop I might have folded this early with the marginal opening hand of ATs (not as marginal later in the tourney when you are in pushshove move trying to stay ahead of the blinds), but it is close so I don’t have a problem with your open.

Postflop you have top pair with a so-so kicker. I don’t have a problem with you leading out and seeing where you are at. He was the button and did not 3bet preflop so you can definitely feel that you are ahead of his range after the flop. Villain calls (probably not what you were hoping for).

The turn brings yet another card that hits his range and there is now a lot on the board that I think hits his button range. I would prefer to check instead of bet and hope to get to showdown cheaply. Your hand at this point is not something I want to go to war with. A tiny skirmish, absolutely. A war, not so much.

The river gives you two pair which is both pretty and ugly. Pretty because two pair is a big hand. Ugly because all kinds of straights and flushes got there. You check, he bets and its close whether you call or fold. I am fine with your decision to call.

Maniackid11
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November 19, 2018 - 5:56 am
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How do we range villains flat here? I gave villain two ranges, one with fewer suited Aces, and another with all suited aces.

This is range 1. I think these hands are pretty standard for a lot of players to be flatting the BTN: TT-22,AJo-A9o,KQo-KTo,QJo-QTo,JTo,AJs-A9s,KQs-K9s,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s,87s,76s,65s

By the river, if we range villain with this, we only have 27-28% equity against this range. If I did my math correctly, we need 28% to make this call to break even.

An interesting thing is that when we add more suited Aces to villains flatting range, our equity jumps a little, at least enough to make this call profitably over time.

So here is range 2:TT-22,AJo-A9o,KQo-KTo,QJo-QTo,JTo,AJs-A2s,KQs-K9s,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s,87s,76s,65s

Against this range, we have roughly 31% equity by the river.

The point I am trying to make is this: If I am in your shoes 3for3 I would have made the call. After looking at a few ranges in Flopzilla, I think I would lean towards a fold in the future. But it’s super close.

The Riceman
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November 19, 2018 - 12:32 pm
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Hmmm…Danny right? I’ve been away. I see that you are on a couple podcasts with Andrew…going to check them out.

Well I am opening this from any position, when deep, shallow, or in between. Further, I am opening any suited ace from any position, even A2s, even if there were 1000 positions on the table, and I was position one. Too much potential, especially early on.

I guess I’m with the general consensus…it is a tough one. There’s a load of hands he is doing this with that beat you, but equally there are a load he is doing this with you beat. A particularly gnarly river card there to put you in the soup. 

I do have a general rule. I used to do a bit of trading online, and IIRC you were a trader of some kind. I think in terms of stop-loss. With top pair my stop-loss is to get two streets of value usually, so if the river hadn’t paired your 10, I’d have folded no question. 

Tough one.

3for3
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November 19, 2018 - 2:14 pm
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This is Danny, yes.  I hope you enjoy the podcasts.

I think we can debate all 4 streets.  I do think opening here is completely standard; have a suited ace is especially good when deep.  I would open this hand from any position at these stack depths.  When in the 20-50BB range, I tend to fold these hands from up front.

On the flop, betting seems fine to me, but several 2+2 posters think this is a check.  I don’t agree, there is plenty of value to get from 9x, 8x, weaker Ax, and draws.  The turn is unlikely to make the board safer; only a 2/3/4 are complete blanks.  Why not bet now.  They argue we can’t get 3 streets from worse; but I’d rather get some value while my range and hand are definitely ahead of Villains.

The turn, I think I misplayed.  We do need to check some Ax one pair hands, and this is surely a good one.  We have an easy call, with our OESD, and our value targets aren’t as wide now (Villain will fold some of his weakest hands that called the flop). There were no timing tells on the turn..

In retrospect, I actually like a blocker bet on the river.  We can get looked up by lesser 2 pairs, and Villain is unlikely to bluff raise a bet.  I could have bet say, 1100, and saved 1200 against the hands that call me, but would have bet themselves. 

As to whether to call the river…I didn’t really have a solid read on Villain, and I thought it was just possible I could beat some of his Value…he might after all, think his JT is good here.

 

Maniac:  Villain definitely has more Ax suited than you are giving him.  However, you need to be careful about looking at his whole preflop range, and evaluating that on the river.   Some of those hands like K9 are folding the flop.  Some of the stronger hands will have raised at some point, like QTo, if it called the flop is definitely raising the turn.

Maniackid11
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November 20, 2018 - 5:55 am
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3 you’re right. I kept in all of the suited Aces this time. And by the river, I see what you mean. So with all the suited aces, we have 35% equity against what villain would have by the river.

Yesterday on break, I started thinking about the blocker bet on the river, and I like it. I understand exactly what you were saying and I think it would have been better.

By the river, I have ranged villain with 19 combos of Two Pair 6 combos of sets, 21 combos of straights and 3 combos of flushes.

Here’s villains range by the river AT-A7s, QT-JT,T8,98-76s,99-77,ATo-A9o.

3for3
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November 20, 2018 - 9:57 am
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I think you might be misranging Villain in several spots. Of the Ax suited:  He might have raised 2 pair, or even AT on the turn.  The QTo is almost certainly raising the turn.  I am not sure he has T8o to start with.  98s will sometimes raise the flop.  99 and 88 will raise at some point.

That leaves: 6 combos of JT.  4 combos of AT.  7 combos of 87/76 suited.  2 combos of A7s.  One combo of T9s.  I think those are all there for sure.  Whether he calls the turn bet with Ax suited, no draw is debatable.  There are probably some other hands that I am leaving out.  I think he might get to the river with some hands like K9, K8, Q9, Q8 that are now flushes.  Come to think of it, there are actually a lot more flushes than you (or I, at the table) are giving Villain credit for.  All of his 9x and 8x with DD are calling flop, and picking up a flush draw on turn.  How many flushes is dependent on just how low he takes his 2/3 gappers SC’s before the flop.  I wouldn’t be shocked to see this player type show up with 96s or 85s here, though I think that is too loose.

Seeing how many flushes there are makes me really dislike my river call.  Whether there is value in a small blocker bet, to get paid off by his JT/T9 is debatable, but it certainly feels better than check call.  

almofadinhas
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December 7, 2018 - 8:33 pm
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I was doing this on flopzilla, I dont think there is too many flush draw on the turn, I gave V most Axs to call IP, and the Ad is on the flop, so it leave other suited, Flopzilla show 8.2% flush draw ott (K9, K8, QT, Q9, T9, T8, 98, 97, 87 and 76 of diamond)

The range i got to the turn is: JJ-88,AQo-ATo,QJo-QTo,JTo,T9o,98o,AQs-A2s,K9s-K8s,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s,76s

There is still some monsters that may raise flop or turn, not sure how this player is going to play 300bb stacks.

I agree you should bet the river and fold in case V reraises you. There is worst two pair and weak Ax that will call a small bet, but will check it if you let them.

3for3
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December 8, 2018 - 12:07 pm
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Thanks almo.  I do think this Villain had more suited connectors in his preflop range than you gave him.  

I think it is very unlikely he just flats a set on turn.  

I still like Bet/fold better than check call.  

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