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27-180 man $15 Turbo FT "what is he doing this with(that I beat?)"
The Riceman
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September 10, 2017 - 5:08 am
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So it’s a little later than promised, but I’m a man of my word…so here’s a Riceman hand to dissect please…

I can’t seem still to get the HH insert to work, maybe it won’t accept HH’s from HoldemResources…I don’t know, so forgive the copy and paste:

27-180 man $15 Turbo, Final Table, 4 left of 60 odd players…$277 to the winner, tbh I can’t recall the exact payouts of 2nd, 3rd, 4th. Standard stuff.

PokerStars Hand #175446837734: Tournament #2036602222, $13.77+$1.23 USD Hold’em No Limit – Level XIV (800/1600) – 2017/09/10 9:13:41 WET [2017/09/10 4:13:41 ET]
Table ‘2036602222 5’ 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2:HERO(43854 in chips)
Seat 3: 362017 (12664 in chips)
Seat 6: Simon (21928 in chips)
Seat 9: CarmeloSwish (29554 in chips)
HERO: posts the ante 150
362017: posts the ante 150
Simon: posts the ante 150
CarmeloSwish: posts the ante 150
CarmeloSwish: posts small blind 800
HERO: posts big blind 1600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [4s Jh]
362017: folds
Simon: folds
CarmeloSwish: calls 800
HERO: checks
*** FLOP *** [4c 8d 4d]
CarmeloSwish: checks
HERO: bets 1600
CarmeloSwish: calls 1600
*** TURN *** [4c 8d 4d] [3c]
CarmeloSwish: checks
HERO: bets 3200
CarmeloSwish: calls 3200
*** RIVER *** [4c 8d 4d 3c] [9c]
CarmeloSwish: checks
HERO: bets 4800
CarmeloSwish: raises 9932 to 14732
HERO: calls 9932

Obviously, I nearly had a happy ending in my pants when I checked back the SB’s limp and 4c 8d 4d hit with my Jh 4s holding. I didn’t think V had very much of anything so I decided to bet out small, hoping he had an 8 or a diamond draw, but expecting him to fold. I squealed with delight when he called my flop bet…(oh the freedoms of playing online!). I now put him firmly on a probable 8, possible diamond draw, very almost super-unlikely pocket pair…I’d imagine he’d have raised most of them BvB from SB. Regarding how he perceives my range…air/bluff…wary I might have an 8…super-unlikely I hold a 4.

So the 3c is largely an irrelevance WRT his range, I think. He obviously has some interest because he called my flop bet; so I bet out again smallish, to get value from his 8 or charge his draw. When he calls I am literally having spasms of ecstasy in my chair, although this might be the meds. The river “bricks off” to my thinking with 9c…whatever interest he had in the hand revolved around the 8 or the flush draw. He checks, I bet again…expecting a tentative call with an 8, or also a possible shove with a missed diamond draw vs a board which I am unlikely to have much of. I’d have snap called.

But what he does next stops me in my tracks…he 3bets non all-in. Now it looks as though he’s trying to induce me to put him all-in. I start to get a fever…what the hell is he doing this with? A sinking feeling in my stomach. What does he have that I beat? A missed diamond draw would have shoved or folded. A full house? Doesn’t make sense as he’d have raised 88 pre. There’s a super-outside chance he has clubs and rivered a club flush. The only hand which he might be raising here is a 9, but that doesn’t make sense because I was aggressive throughout the hand and a 9 is mediocre here at best.

I call, expecting to lose, but not truly comprehending how it’s possible.

Thoughts please?

The Riceman
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September 15, 2017 - 1:30 pm
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Well we simply can’t abide a Riceman thread with f*****g zero disrespectful replies. 

So I will reply to the bastard thing myself.

I though it was an interesting hand…

Please, I implore any kind soul who has a heart…respond si vous plait?

Even if it is just to tell me “Riceman, your hand holds zero interest for anybody involved in tournament poker in any capacity, however small…retire from the forums buddy, your time is over”.

Gee whizz, there was a time I used to command this forum (at least in my deluded mind).

Now I don’t even get a single response to the lame ass withered hand I posted.

DDD, where are you man?

DuckinDaDeck
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September 17, 2017 - 3:42 am
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Hey Riceman, WCOOP and traveling to a wedding kept me busy, but I’m (sort of) here now buddy (still away from home til Tuesday). Pretty disgusting spot on the river facing a check-raise. I don’t think we should ever be folding, but I find it really hard to range villain here, which is at least partly due to our play on earlier streets.

Regardless of your hand, I think your bet sizing on all 3 streets is too small, and will create a lot of awkward rivers. The way you describe your thought process makes me think you are too focused on getting paid by a wide range, rather than extracting the maximum from villain’s better hands. If any spot is likely to encourage non-believers it is blind battles, and I think many villains will happily check/call larger bets on all three streets with a pair of 8s, so when I’m holding trips I want to size in a way that gets stacks in play by the river.

Pot on flop is 3800, with ~27800 effective. If we go 2800 on flop, turn pot is 9400 with 25000 behind. A turn bet of 6500 makes the pot 22400 with 18500 behind, and I think our hand can easily get called wide enough to be happy shoving on this runout. We will lose some value from weaker holdings by sizing up, but I think we more than make up for that when we stack villains strong eights or limped overpairs (at <=20bb I think TT+ will limp to induce occasionally). Even if we decide not to size quite so large, I think we miss way too much value by only betting 1bb/2bb/3bb. 

Another reason to size larger is that it keeps our range more polarized. I doubt that villain ever expects us to bluff with a 1bb/2bb/3bb sizing, so I think our range looks pretty condensed to marginal value hands like 87 or Q8. This may successfully induce a few river bluffs, which is great when we’re holding trips, but I much prefer betting in a way that allows villain to include some busted diamonds and other air in our range.

Apologies if this analysis is kind of weak, I’m half passed out and more than a little drunk. Will check in again once I’m back home.

The Riceman
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September 17, 2017 - 4:31 pm
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I love you man for simply replying. I will look at your excellent analysis tomorrow.

Truthfully…and I am being sincere here…I cannot remember a new guy to TPE coming in to the forums and making such comprehensive, helpful and insightful criticisms from the get-go.

(Turbulence was the only other dude, apart from the TPE pros, who comes to mind…but he was an old hand I believe, in any case).

DuckinDaDeck
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September 21, 2017 - 9:23 pm
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Aww dude, that post was sappier than most of the wedding toasts. Lol

Thanks man, I’ve lurked and participated in a few forums over the years, but something about TPE forums makes me really motivated to work on my game. Putting thoughts together clearly enough to write them out is probably at least as helpful to me as it might be for anyone else, and discussing ideas with people (like you) who are both interesting and interested is even more valuable.

theginger45

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October 13, 2017 - 1:13 pm
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Duck makes some great points about sizing. Not folding river, but not super happy about it either.

The Riceman
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October 13, 2017 - 3:58 pm
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DDD said:

“Another reason to size larger is that it keeps our range more polarized. I doubt that villain ever expects us to bluff with a 1bb/2bb/3bb sizing, so I think our range looks pretty condensed to marginal value hands like 87 or Q8. This may successfully induce a few river bluffs, which is great when we’re holding trips, but I much prefer betting in a way that allows villain to include some busted diamonds and other air in our range.”

I absolutely love this, now I have analysed it further.

Matt said:

“Duck makes some great points about sizing. Not folding river, but not super happy about it either.”

Just about summed up my feeling entirely…

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