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ACR Freeroll, Flush heavy King high flop, what do you do?
Maniackid11
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September 24, 2018 - 11:39 pm
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WPN, 30/60 blinds No Limit Hold’em Tournament, 7 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager – The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: 2,260 (37.7 bb)
BB: 5,665 (94.4 bb)
MP1: 4,654 (77.6 bb)
MP2: 1,380 (23 bb)
MP3: 5,792 (96.5 bb)
Hero (CO): 1,855 (30.9 bb)
BTN: 4,194 (69.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Adiamond Aclub
MP1 calls 60, MP2 folds, MP3 calls 60, Hero raises to 189, BTN folds, SB calls 159, BB calls 129, MP1 calls 129, MP3 calls 129

Flop: (945) 6heart 4heart Kheart (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets 945, MP1 calls 945, MP3 folds, Hero raises to 1,666 and is all-in, SB folds, BB calls 721, MP1 calls 721

Turn: (5,943) 4club (3 players, 1 is all-in)
BB checks, MP1 checks

River: (5,943) 9heart (3 players, 1 is all-in)
BB checks, MP1 bets 2,799 and is all-in, BB folds

Results:[spoil] 5,943 pot
Final Board: 6heart 4heart Kheart 4club 9heart
BB mucked and lost (-1,855 net)
MP1 showed Jheart 6club and won 5,943 (4,088 net)
Hero showed Adiamond Aclub and lost (-1,855 net)
[/spoil]

this is my read when BB calls the SB donk bet on the flop: SB is leading pot with Kx to ‘discourage players with a draw to continue’ and BB is calling because he has strong flush draw. I wasn’t folding here, which might be the mistake I think I’m looking to correct. I feel like IF I was playing in a higher-buyin game, I might have considered folding when BB flats. Because this is a freeroll, I felt jamming (although with almost 0 fold equity) was the best option for me, because I just wasn’t folding. This has to be a mistake in my thinking, yes? Any advice would be appreciated.

Maniackid11
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September 24, 2018 - 11:40 pm
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sorry when MP calls BB donk bet**

rppoker
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September 25, 2018 - 3:56 am
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Preflop there have been two calls before you act, so I might make a case for you betting slightly larger than 180. Maybe 240, although I don’t hate your 180 bet if you were playing against good competition (which it appears is not the case). 180 ensures you will get at least one call, which is what you want, but 240 looks like a squeeze which might get the desired possibility of only one call or even better a re-raise if someone thinks you are squeezing slightly light or if they have a big but inferior hand to aces.

The fact that you get four calls seems pretty fishy, which I guess is to be expected in a freeroll against weak competition. It seems unlikely that your raise gets four calls on a seven-handed table in a real money tournament with better competition. That said, the fact that four people have called you means you have to proceed with caution after the flop even with aces. While you are a clear cut favorite against any one opponent preflop, I’ve got to believe that you are nonetheless an underdog to all four of the opponents cumulatively preflop.

When the flop comes three hearts, of which you have none meaning you have no blockers, you have to consider the possibility that one of your opponents has already made their flush. If you had at least flopped trips at least you would have the equity of hitting a full house on the turn or river if either pairs the board. If you had the ace of hearts then at least you’d have the equity of possibly making the nut flush on the turn or river. The fact that the BB bets pot after the flop with three players to act makes me think he has you beat. Plus there is more action to act behind you. I would probably fold. I get that you can’t just call since that would leave you with not a lot of chips with further action still to follow behind you, not to mention turn and river bets to come. Nonetheless, you have no fold equity when you go all-in. So if you aren’t going to fold, then I guess calling or going all-in are essentially the same thing. For all the reasons I have mentioned, once three hearts hit on the flop your A-A (no hearts) as strong as it was preflop has been turned into a bluff or bluff catcher after the flop.

The fact that MP1 played Jh 6c the way they did is pretty horrible preflop and postflop. The fact that they got there on the river to win the hand doesn’t take away the fact that they played the hand horrendously. If people are playing this loosely and this poorly, it points to a few things to me. First, there are going to be great spots against these players, which points to the fact that you don’t want to overplay AA on a wet flop that is three to a flush. Different story if the board is dry on the flop (2-6-J rainbow for example). Second, if everyone is call happy (I can’t say for sure without watching previous hands, but this hand points to your opponents being very, very call happy) then maybe my earlier comment about raising bigger preflop when there have already been two calls before your bet makes even more sense.

One last thought. Playing in freerolls can be dangerous to your growth as a poker player. The way people play in freerolls (fake money) tournaments is completely different than they way people play in online or live real money tournaments. In freerolls your opponents often just want to get it in (good or bad, it doesn’t matter to them) so that if they get lucky they have a big stack, and if they lose all their chips no big deal they can just register for another freeroll/fake money tourney. If you get used to playing really bad players it will be counterproductive to knowing how to play against better players. I’m not suggesting that you start playing in real money tournaments that are beyond your financial comfort level, but given that you have shown enough interest to sign up for a training site to improve your game, you have to recognize that the type of play you see in freerolls has virtually nothing to do with what you will see in real money tournaments.

The way you play bad players is completely different than the way you play good players. A case in point is the home game I play in. It is the lowest possible stakes meant solely to be a social gathering of friends who are mostly poor players. There is one other player in the game besides me who is pretty good (not elite but solid). Then there are a couple of players who are below average but not horrendous who think they are better than they are. Then there are several players who are terrible. We play dealers choice with the deal rotating around the table. At the end of the night we sometimes play a tournament. It is a total minefield. Against the one good player I have to play one way. Against the below average but not horrendous players I have to play another way. The hardest guys to play are the truly horrendous players because you never have any idea what they have (they will play any two cards and just gamble, or they’ll treat third-best pair like the nuts meaning your premium hands are usually good against them but every once in a while they will play 2-7 from early position and flop trip twos on a 2-2-9 rainbow flop). My point is that nothing that makes sense in a real live tournament setting applies, and nothing that is taught on this training site applies. 

Maniackid11
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September 25, 2018 - 7:48 am
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haha rppoker I love this response, man! First, I 100% agree with you, I do believe that my first decision was the worst, which was my preflop open sizing. I think 240ish actually sounds about right, maybe even bigger because of the fact that all it takes in these things is one caller and then everyone else calls. One thing I should mention though, it’s a freeroll, but it’s not fake money, 1st place takes $2.50 and 10 points towards the weekly freeroll leader board competition, second place takes $1.35 and 9 points and so on. By the end of 1 week, the player that has accumulated the most points for 1st place wins a $215 tournament entry ticket into a $50,000 GTD tournament the following Sunday, and $55 tourney ticket. 2nd place thru 10th place all win $55 tourney tickets. So technically we are actually competing for money.

Not that any of that information actually changes much of what you said, although you would think it should. Second, I agree that once BB leads and MP calls 99.9% of the time I should be WAY behind or not very far ahead. IF this was any other tourney, I would have easily tossed my ACEs in the muck, but as you can see by the way the hand turned out, my read wasn’t too far off. I agree, the J6 guy had no business being in the hand, maybe one could make an argument preflop because of the odds he was given but I mean come on, J6o? When BB bets pot on the flop, I knew he had something like top pair because I’ve seen guys play those hands like that so many times before. It really does get frustrating playing against these players sometimes but I can’t complain to much because I used to play just as bad when I first started playing. As far as playing on higher stakes….well….I’d love to. Right now, my bankroll is limited to these freerolls. Hopefully that will change soon though.

It’s funny you say this “One last thought. Playing in freerolls can be dangerous to your growth as a poker player.” Because IDK how true it is, but on some level, I’ve kind of always felt that way, too. Don’t get me wrong, there are some decent regs that play in these freerolls, but there are a lot fishy type players (not that I think I am much better than them, but I am to some degree). But, I think that playing against these types of players should be kind of simple (but sometimes frustrating) because all you really have to do is pick better starting hands to play against them with, and usually it’s profitable. And, once you get better post flop(which is where I need to focus most) then you can widen your ranges you play against them with because it gets easier to read the boards against their actions, and you can usually tell when you’re ahead and when you’re not.

Thanks for the response, man!

rppoker
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September 25, 2018 - 10:01 pm
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A couple of additional thoughts Maniackid. Whereas the training videos on TPE seem to recommend raising 2x to 2.2x preflop, I think against players who are call happy with weak to medium holdings you probably want to be raising 3x to punish them for calling way too widely. If you do this, down the road you will have to adjust this betting size when you move up in stakes against better players who will try to push you out of the pot postflop, resulting in you losing more chips if you raised 3x preflop instaead of 2.0x – 2.2x. But against bad, loose players who will call with any two cards, I think it makes sense to charge them a 3x tax to punish them for calling too widely. You do this by patiently waiting for quality hands and then bloating the pot with 3x bets.

Also, you want to identify bat-sh*t crazy players and try to isolate against them when you have premium hands. Ideally, the bat-sh*t crazy player is to your immediate left and you get paid when you have premium hands as well as slightly less than premium hands that are still ahead of his massively wide range. I am currently watching a series of videos on TPE by Mike Leah in stage 2 of University which really shows this exceptionally well in parts 1 and 2 of the series. Leah has played against the lunatic to his left before and has notes on the opponent. Plus, it quickly becomes apparent that the lunatic on his left is clueless on bet sizing (5x, 8x, 10x), on what hands to play (he is in waaaaay to many hands), and tries to bluff almost every hand. Leah makes it a point to get in as many hands as possible against the lunatic when Leah has hands better than the lunatic’s range. Then Leah calls wider than usual because the lunatic is almost always bluffing. This can be very swingy since once in a while the lunatic has a real hand and will get paid off since no one believes he ever has a hand. But eventually Leah ends up with all of the lunatic’s chips. It’s a high wire act to play against this type of player, but I found it fascinating, and it made me think of the opponents you are describing in this thread.

Maniackid11
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September 25, 2018 - 10:35 pm
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That’s awesome man. I can relate to this experience you are describing and I find it amazing when things that we discuss in the forums correlate so nicely with what we watch from the pros at TPE. As you are describing this, it reminds me of almost all the hands DuckinDaDeck, and Foucault have helped me with. It’s really rewarding, and helped me learn a ton! Glad to see you are so active on the forums, too! Keep it up, man we can all learn from each other!

DuckinDaDeck
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September 26, 2018 - 12:14 am
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I prefer going much larger preflop, with 2 limpers I want to put in at least 4.5bb so I’d recommend 270 to 360. Many players who limp are going to find excuses to call larger raises almost as often as smaller ones, and we probably don’t need to worry about balancing our raise size. I’m happy to limp behind in position vs. multiple limpers with my A5s,J9s,etc. so we can raise larger when our range is stronger than normal.

As played, I think we can find a fold on the flop but it’s close. Villains can be overplaying top pair but with 5 people seeing the flop you’re going to see a fair amount of flopped flushes. I’d definitely shove over the original bet, and accept my fate if someone behind has me crushed, but AA shrinks a lot once there is already a caller. As much as you will occasionally fold the best hand, I think your equity against 2 ranges willing to commit a pot size bet is relatively low, and SB/MP3 can also have good hands once in a while. That being said, the nature of freerolls means you will see a lot of random hands… so AA can definitely be okay to get in here.

rppoker said
Also, you want to identify bat-sh*t crazy players and try to isolate against them when you have premium hands… It’s a high wire act to play against this type of player, but I found it fascinating, and it made me think of the opponents you are describing in this thread.  

I think this is a really important skill to develop. Being able to quickly identify strange play patterns allows you to target nutty players faster than the other regs, and one hand can be enough to identify a target if you’re paying attention. As tournament fields continue to get tougher, there’s a lot of value in being willing and able to intelligently accept more variance by playing wider ranges against the fun players. 

At the low and mid stakes, playing hands against somewhat competent to very good players will make up most of your poker mileage (at least online), but being able to maximize profit from the fun players can dramatically increase your win-rate. When I’ve identified a target, I try to think about it as if I’m competing with every other reg on the table to get their chips. I’m not going to abandon hand selection or other fundamentals, but I’m much more inclined to take marginal spots when someone is throwing their chips around. This can include:

– Widening ranges for 3betting and isolating limps when that player is involved.

– Limping strong hands against aggro fun players that are on my left. Not only can I limp-3bet against the fun player, but regs targeting the same player will often call the raise (or make a 3bet) wider than standard, and are in a really tough spot once I make another raise. Many huge pots have been built by regs (myself included) getting involved with silly hands in this type of situation. Limping also allows me some degree of pot control preflop, so that I can play more implied odds hands like 76s against fun players who frequently 3bet. 

– 3betting regs who are isolating the fun player, widening my range for cold 4bets, and even cold-calling more 3bets if I’ll have position on (at least) the reg postflop. Astute regs will attack my bets in the same manner, so my iso and 3bet ranges vs the fun player are often determined by how much resistance I expect from the other regs.

– Making bigger bets for value and bluffing less frequently. I’ll still look for spots to bluff, but I’ll frequently give up on the flop or turn against these players. Some will notice this and be less likely to commit a lot of chips when we do give action, but they’re still liable to overplay weak made hands. I’m also less likely to emphasize blockers or board texture, and more likely to pick my bluffs based on bet sizes or anything that indicates a lack of interest in the pot.

– Playing huge pots with top pairs, even without a great kicker. I would never raise the flop 100bb effective with QJ on J62 against a reg, but I often consider it a missed opportunity if I miss this kind of bet against the gamblers.

– Busting from the tournament fairly often when I get drawn out on or coolered by the fun player. If the right type of player has AJ on the previous board, I consider it a cooler when we play a massive pot.

TLDR: I’m very willing to accept more risk against maniacs because of the potential reward. You still want to wait for stronger hands if a large portion of the player pool is recreational, but in games where maniacs are (somewhat) few and far between, outcompeting the other regs for their chips is a great way to increase your edge.

Maniackid11
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September 26, 2018 - 11:38 pm
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“I prefer going much larger preflop, with 2 limpers I want to put in at least 4.5bb so I’d recommend 270 to 360.” I love this suggestion. Something I am going to work hard to change, because I feel like I’m just being lazy and clicking the scroll bar to increase size instead of taking the time to type in a specific amount.

“As played, I think we can find a fold on the flop but it’s close. Villains can be overplaying top pair but with 5 people seeing the flop you’re going to see a fair amount of flopped flushes.” Yeah, I know what you mean and I agree. I guess really I was looking to see that others would agree with what I was kind of thinking while playing this hand. I guess the flop texture was really my main concern with how I played this hand, and the fact that it was multi-way just adds to the importance of much the strength of my hand decreased. So here, I think I should be working on getting more comfortable being able to analyze a situation like this in the future, and being disciplined enough to part with my Aces when the situation calls for it. I think I just went with my read for the two players BB and MP (but dangerously ignored the other player still left to act behind me) and kinda put to much stock in it. So I will def. be more cautious while trying to improve on this in the future.

“I think this is a really important skill to develop. Being able to quickly identify strange play patterns allows you to target nutty players faster than the other regs, and one hand can be enough to identify a target if you’re paying attention. As tournament fields continue to get tougher, there’s a lot of value in being willing and able to intelligently accept more variance by playing wider ranges against the fun players. “ 100% on my list of “things to improve on” so thank you.

“At the low and mid stakes, playing hands against somewhat competent to very good players will make up most of your poker mileage (at least online), but being able to maximize profit from the fun players can dramatically increase your win-rate. When I’ve identified a target, I try to think about it as if I’m competing with every other reg on the table to get their chips. I’m not going to abandon hand selection or other fundamentals, but I’m much more inclined to take marginal spots when someone is throwing their chips around.I like to believe that eventually I will improve a lot more. For that reason, I have saved your entire response in my ‘notes’ because I find a TON of value in the amount of time you take to post a response and I find a lot of insight in how you have helped me so far. So, my man, I can’t say thank you enough!

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