48 bb's is fine to get in. I 4b to 205k and call a shove or if he flats I get it in on any flop.

Depending on how late in the tourney this is, or if it's near any bubbles are we always getting it in with 48bb with AK?  I almost feel like just planning on getting it in here could be higher variance. 

My answer is 2 parts:

1 – If this is an aggro table that I don't feel I have as large an edge at… My intentions are also to 4bet and get it in.

2 – If this is a table with players I feel I have a much larger edge over, then I don't know If my plan is to get it in here.  Tho flatting the 3bet is much more passive, I'm wondering if I don't pass up on potentially marginal EV spots if we are fairly certain we can exploit elsewhere and be much more profitable/lower variance?

Only having 17 hands tho they could have very well just been on a streak of hands/spots too… I'm not sure I'd even use these stats…

Van H3Lzing said:

This is one of the reasons I play 4 d games less as your in PUKE WTF spots like this a lot haha.

 

I guess we gotta get it in here. It sucks that his stack can cripple us if we lose this pot.

 

Is it terrible to click it back here? like 177 k or summin.

What's our plan after clicking it back if he 5b's?    I'd take the same line as Danny here and 4b/get it in.  His 3b sizing does seem a lil odd but who knows maybe he has an AJ or 77 and just wants to take it down here and scare us away.  I don't think I'm getting away from this and def not wanting to flat here and if we whiff have to fold to his cbet.

get it in as stated

A loose player like this in a $4 game probably has no idea about 3bet sizing anyway! so i'd just assume that this sizing is his 'standard' and play it out as above

I have not seen one person try to range villian here and how we fair against his range. There also is a bet size 'tell' here. 3bets this big from a loose villian (and oop) are still usually medium to high pairs that he does not have any concept on how to get value with. You are this deep and wanna get it in with A high? (spewwwww) He is betting big and oop, range is 66-AA, AJ+ imo given this type of player. Yes there are some spazz hands in there but he is giving a 'tell' imo and we got to use that to narrow his range further. This is just my opinion. I am flatting and playing position or folding by just deciding that i only have 2bbs invested and decide to take his money in a different hand.

First of all I am never ever folding this spot. The fact you would even consider folding is just absurd imo. Yeah the donkey made it 4.5x OOP, great! I don't really like flatting because we are losing so much FE by not 4b. I'm obv never 4b folding so I think the best play is to 4b/call. Yeah it's 48 bb's but whatever. I mean if we had 60+ then it may be a little different. Yeah you could argue to flat IP and outplay him but what happens when it comes like 862 and he has 99. He's never folding. Get it in pre obv.

+1 to duggs. well said.

Strongly disagree with that, some opponents get a tag from me after a single hand. 17 hands is plenty to matter, the weight you put into those stats may be reduced, but ignoring them seems silly

I see all your points. Here’s what i think. This is a SUPER deep tourney. We have 55bbs, at level 5000/10,000, and we arent even 1st at the table in chips!? There is plenty of time here fellas.If we looked around and there was 5-25bb stacks all over, it be different. No need to turn this into super high variance spot imo. WERE DEEP!! We’ve got position on this loser, and he is 3betting us from the sb. This could be imo 10’s+ AJs+ or even a little wider. ..this could also be aces. We could play this 1 of 3 ways.
If we just flat in pos, we disguise the strength of our hand, and allow weaker aces to come in. I also know i’m going to be the far superior postflop player, in POS! If he fires flop on any board we are floating to obv see what he does on turn, and take it away on later streets. Or just simply smack the flop and let him chip dump us, until he wants to stop.
Or we can play it Danny’s way. This puts an extreme amount of pressure on a more then likely inferior small stakes player. It gives a KK/AA image.. With that being said playing it Danny’s way may just trigger his reshove. Do we really want that?.55bbs here? When we are probably at a far advantage skillwise at the the table?? if we lose the race we are crippled, and can no longer use them..
The third way is obviously just to ship it on him, {giving him a real tough decision}..(If he isnt holding the GOODZ that is!}
Keep in mind here.. if we flat in pos, we can get him to fold the same exact hand on flop or turn!!.. on dry, or wet boards, when u miss ak, its hard to play oop against flop aggression. By doing it this way, we have a chance at winning this nice pot without having to chop it. This is certainly possible given the action. hes never folding it to our 4bet pre..If he bombs flop and turn on non ace high boards, he almost always has JJ+, and we should be happy we still have our stack intact.
My play under this particular set of circumstances, meaning…{stack size, his stack size, my pos in the hand, my position in the tourney, and my set of skills}, is to flat and outplay my opponent postflop. while at the same time disguising my monster hand if i hit. Essentially the same way we should play this scenario at level 1. If we were between 20-30bbs, we all know what the standard plays would be here. But its not the case. So lets not variance our tourney life away with AK off! Lets just outplay our opponent. Who is SITTING at the WORST spot at the table might I add…glgl

Posted this hand as I’m questioning the automatic AK = get it in, or at least trying to define which stack size I need to question this and actually start playing post flop. I think approx 50bb is that point at this $4 level…. It’s probs the case for Danny & Cougars that they are used to playing such aggro tricky players that they cant back down at their buyins with AK, and think nothing of getting 50bb in. But at $4 do we have to think that we can wait for better spots / outplay post flop. Not sure I’m as confident as others here that I am necessarily the best player at table….

Althou I do have to question the “only A high” argument a bit (but still muchos respectos hawkeye!). Is it not the equity we have in the hand, rather than our current made hand that’s important -particularly if we are shoving?

Anyway my read was similar to Hawks in that he didn’t have da goodz and just wanted to take it down there (22-JJ, poss QQ, AQ+, AJs+). Therefore i thought i was taking the low variance approach and shoved (get most folds) just to take it down myself -however feel that this is ugly play and turns my hand face up(?). Initially didn’t want to flat such a large bet and play fit or fold, but I like olespaul’s thinking that we can flat and float a bet, and keep up pressure on flop / turn. Even if he’s betting 2/3 pot on flop, we float and fold to turn bet we still have 40bb+.

Pleased to get some good discussion going, have missed tpe since they banned it at work!

its a $4 on PS, hes laggy whatever 21 hands sometimes is enough of a sample size for me deep in mtts. try not to outlevel yourself here. 4b/c. he’ll shove AQ maybe AJs and worst as bluffs. we have AK blocker so we’re up against TT-QQ alot. he will tend to fold smaller pairs hes scared with. there is just too much equity in a 4b while flatting has so much less value. the only dream scenario for flatting wud be if hes folding Ax hands like A5-AJ to a 4b but would stack off post on Ace high flops. but i dont play hoping for best case. maximixe spots and chip up. AK 7 handed with 50 left against aggro dood, gimme that every time. sure it can be higher than norm variance but we are late enough in the mtt to take it. give me a top 5 stack with couple tables left all day all night. passive play in these spots just doesnt fly online.

I really dont like flatting, you are turning a great hand with equity vs villains 5bet range, has a good chance of taking the pot down preflop, and turning it fit/fold on the flop, or turning it into flatting in order to always calls down, also there are heaps of action killer cards that stop us getting chips from parts of his range we dominate/flip with.

I really dont think how deep we are is a determining factor, if the villain was happy to flip off with a range I crush like this for 200bb at the start of a major then i would be taking that also. accumulate chips in +EV spots, Exert pressure on other stack sizes, Win the tournament.

Also strongly agree with everything Danny said.

your costing yourself by comparing a wsop circuit event or whatever to a $4 online mtt. if your playing this hand the same way in both, then you certainly need to re-evaluate your game. sorry man, my post maybe wasnt clear enough….when i stress online, i mean it. i certainly wud play this very differently in a deep/slow structured live event. in addition, this notion of “playing entire stack with Ace high” is often overused and not understood properly. the online game has gotten so aggro that AK has turned into nutty 4bet and 5bet AI calls. whereas, live for the mostpart, it hasnt yet. and i think a player who doesnt recognize this is costing himself a considerable amount of equity, both chips and cash money.

So your mindset is that when u have 55bbs late in a tourney w a shot to win it, your play is to get it in w ak everytime. Your 100% wrong sir. I’m glad you clarified you wouldnt do this in a wsop event. Needless to say. To say I’m costing myself is comical. What you’ve failed to realize in this hand, and like most others, is the “game” youre in. It’s a $4 mtt. NOT a $30+ one. Players at this stakes don’t understand concepts. they look at there cards and when they see big ones, they raise em without even thinking. To be perfectly honest, and not to gloat. This is exactly why i kill the lowstakes game. Nearly all the techniques work in this game. And developing a LAG or TAG..game can beat it repeatedly. Back to the hand, I said from the gitgo this guys hand was SOOOO polarized!!! it wasnt even funny. Its blatantly obvious. He’s in the sb..once again the WORST spot. Once again more then likely this guy DOES NOT know 3 n 4bet concepts out of the sb, putting pressure on a late position raiser! HE IS A LEVEL 1 thinker. He knows this “i am not suppose to play from this position unless i have a big hands”. Even weaker ones dont know that..they just call to hit flop… So as the original poster just posted. Our man turned over KK, SMOKED!! Nothing further.

Dude your wrong. sorry. The comparison… a wsop circuit event. vs a $4 mtt. The large portion of the fields are going to be level 1’s. The last 5-10% know the game. Filled with 70% of old boy “flop seers”. This old man 4xes u out of the dang sb its no FRICKEN different. This man has a monster. EVERYTIME..A GREAT portion of our equity is on the basis of our opponents folding a good portion of the time. OUR Villain here, is almost NEVER folding with these dynamics. NEVER..Therefore the thinking is off.

^^
Strongly disagree with some of the assumptions you have outlined, Our equity comes largely from getting it in against worse, as unknowns never have correctly adjusted 3bet/5bet ranges. But we also have fold equity against hands like small pairs and weak aces etc. Also I really dont understand how we can ‘outplay’ our opponent post flop.

Also the difference between WSOP and a $3 MTT comes largely from the structure, stack depth, buy in and ease of finding a replacement game, not from the make up of fish in the field.

If its a super nit 3betting us than we should be folding, If he has a wider range (which is likely given his stats) then we 4bet and get it in as a massive favourite v his 5bet range, or we 4bet, get heaps of folds and still get it in fine v his 5bet range. I dont really see a range or possible action where flatting is helpful. Essentially postflop we will be flopping TPTK a chunk of the time, which kills action from all underpairs, or missing and being forced to fold against the Cbet which is always coming.

4bet>4bet shove>fold>call imo

that makes zero sense mate, why would we want to flat and try outplay a range of KK+?