Mark, Not the same villain in the two hands so I have not seen the big stacks 3bet sizing when he has AA.

I don’t think that he is just trying to steal the pot from me. Unless he is just absolutely terrible and I completely missed it. We are so deep that I don’t think I am ever just 4 bet jamming 40bbs here. Don’t you feel like pushing him off a hand may be missing a huge opportunity by just overshove ripping? I think we are then polarizing his range to AA, QQ, and making it really tough for Ak to want to move forward unless he is just awful. We both have 1/5 of the chips in play at this point, the payout is $90 to 17th and over $2500 to first

Like I said, I didn’t have any real reads on the guy (I seem to ignore that tournament the most when multi tabling) but his bet sizing is so terrible IMO and he is risking 1/4 of his stack to take down a 10k pot?

Dan, I actually really like your reasoning here and don’t really like the line I took regardless of results. If I flat here, I can get away from it if an Ace flops and still be huge stacked. If I shove and he calls with AA then whatever it’s just a cooler, make a note on the player, how he plays AA and 4bet the hell out of him light when he makes a normal sized 3bet.

I actually decide to 4 bet the pot, so 10k (blinds and antes) + 9k (my raise) + 48k (his 3bet) = 67k in the pot. So I 4bet to 104k which leaves me 100k left behind. I definitely think I over thought it here and bet exactly half his stack. There is now 161k in the pot and its 56k for him to calI. In retrospect looking at the numbers, I definitely should have just jammed if I decided that I was going to raise and put pressure on him. Definitely a case of leveling myself and now I have given a big stack a chance to gamble with lesser hands and put my chip stack at risk by making a move just as poor as his 12x 3bet.

While I was tanking it reminded me of a spot back in 2003/2004 when I got to the FT of an FTP 24+2 20k GTD which was a pretty big prize pool at the time. I was such a dolt back then that may screen name was my actual name until security actually froze my account and made me change my name. I got to the FT with 60bbs, the guy directly to my left had 70bbs and everyone else was micro stacked. On the very first hand, I raised 3x utg with KK and the other big stack utg+1 insta jams. I didn’t have a HUD, didn’t understand ICM and just knew I had Kaaaaangs. I called, he had AK, ace on the flop, gg me and gg laptop. That baby flew across the room like a frisbee.

So the villain tanks and calls which puts me instantly on tilt. Flop come AQ8 rainbow and the villain waits for about 5 seconds and checks. I have 100k left, there is 218k in the pot. I think I have to give up here right? I can’t jam. Do I put out a feeler bet? The pot is so big that I don’t see a bet size that I can put out that doesn’t cripple me moving forward. If I jam, I’m only getting called by better and this is absolutely the worst flop for Kings.

So what do you do? Check/give up? Jam? Bet something like 40k? I thought about min betting just to see how he would react.

I am not finding a fold there with KK. I'm not finding a fold here with KK. I think Florian is right that both situations are a fist pump shove all in.

I think the point I was trying to make was that it is more likely when a player makes this kind of absurd play that they don't have AA. No person in their right mind is going to play AA this way unless they hate money. I like money. I think it goes back to old saying weak means strong and strong means weak. The villain was strong but AK isn't a made hand which in this case his 3bet implies that he is weaker than AA. KK is only one pair and I needed to push that edge and shove rather than 4bet and have the villain tag along without putting him to a decision for his stacks life when I was 99% sure I had the edge. Like I said, if the villain flips up AA, I make a note of how horribly he played it and 4 bet him non stop when he makes regular sized three bets in the future.

florianm1 said:

i am prlly gii QQ+,AK+ here and fold the rest out if the edge is big enough.

Florian I agree with you on the shove range. His bet isolates me to the very top of my range which I just so happen to have. I should have pushed it and called it day. I understand that a pay jump with 17 left is nothing but with my stack, this late all I have to do is pick and choose spots to pressure, steal blinds, and pick off shorties on my way to a deep final table run so the difference is $50 here or cruise to $700+ later.

Give me 50bbs+ this late in this tournament and 90% of the time I am running to the top 3. If I win this pot preflop with a 4bet shove then that edge is intact. If i shove, he calls with less, and I hold, then I am super stacked and TID. If I get it in and lose to less, then so what. Chalk it up to variance.

Point is I made myself vulnerable by over thinking because of how late it was in the tourney big stack v big stack and his oversized 3ball is so non standard. It threw me off and my tank was more of a what the hell do I do as in is this a spot I should 4bet or shove to get max value. I wasn’t folding and was taking a moment to think through what he could possibly have and what I would ever do that with (answer: nothing). I wanted to discuss what kind of range players can do this with and I think we all agree that he could have 1010+, AQ+ which I am worlds ahead of and happy to get it in against.

This stuff happens all the time while swimming in the MTT sea of Bovada fishies and players show up with AA as much as 47s. In the mid stages when money isn’t in the equation, I’m 4bet shoving all day. Letting money factor into my thought process is definitely a leak regardless of stack size in this particular spot.  

I couldn't agree more Drew. Thanks for putting my 1000 word essay into 4 sentences and nail it.