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April 26, 2013
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Poker Stars $100+$9 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t600/t1200 Blinds + t150 – 9 players – TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
Batschie1 (MP1): BB = 70.1, t84071
sanpri (MP2): BB = 109.8, t131746
brAAAAzil (CO): BB = 41.6, t49914
Hero (BTN): BB = 47.2, t56650
katiemikexxx (SB): BB = 51.1, t61267
Skifferlic (BB): BB = 146.7, t176078
NeGiba (UTG): BB = 31.9, t38295
2013 (UTG+1): BB = 92.8, t111326
$umDumBum (UTG+2): BB = 145.4, t174516
Pre Flop: (t3150) Hero is BTN with 2
3
NeGiba raises to t2400, 2 folds, Batschie1 calls t2400, 2 folds, Hero calls t2400, katiemikexxx calls t1800, Skifferlic calls t1200
Flop: (t13350) Q J Q
(5 players)
katiemikexxx checks, Skifferlic checks, NeGiba checks, Batschie1 checks, Hero checks
Turn: (t13350) 8 (5 players)
katiemikexxx bets t6000, Skifferlic folds, NeGiba calls t6000, Batschie1 folds, Hero calls t6000
River: (t31350) A (3 players)
katiemikexxx bets t52200, NeGiba folds, Hero ???
This hand was early ITM in this 2 days event with blind levels increasing relativly slowly every 20 minutes.
Would you call or fold? The other villian (NeGiba) took ages to fold.
I mean his bet screams value, and I wonder if a good player would ever bluff against two players in this situation? On the other hand… without AQ or the nutflush or a fullhouse he can expect folds most of the times, so a bluff might be profitable. Curious what you guys think.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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I'd fold. I'm not a fan of the pre-flop call either.
April 26, 2013
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Yeah, I figuered I had the pot-odds to flop a nice hidden monster (or moster draw like straight+flushdraw) and there was one fine fish in the pot, too. Still I guess this can be a fould to avoid headache.
I did fold in the end, if he'd only bet ~potsize I dunno, I guess I'd still fold but could have found a call. With his overbet I don't see him do this without a fullhouse. Even the nutflush should go for a not too big valuebet but never an overbet, I guess.
Any more thoughts? Any pros that would play air like that ever?
Btw wish me luck: sitting ~95/160 left in this two-day event now. Need a double up, soon, though.
May 23, 2013
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The problem with calling pre is you never feel good raising flops with the draws, you won’t have pair outs and most of your straights are either blocked by an A or when the A comes (to give you a straight draw) one of the players in the hand could have an A and isn’t folding. Suited connectors are great for multi way pots, but 23s is not strong enough, hands like 56/67/78 play much better. This hand illustrates it well, we make our hand and still don’t know where we are at and without the paired board, we still would not feel great calling with the smallest flush.
November 4, 2013
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Fold pre, saves us this probelm ever arising.
As played, fold. Way too much is beating us here, and all of it is in SB range.
December 24, 2013
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I think any bluffs that you put in this spot would need blockers to strong flushes so like As. You'd be turning your hand into a bluff 100% but I doubt top pair is good here, so if it blocks you or others from having AQ and Ace flush, it might be good. like AT or with As is 3 combos and value would be QJ (he shouldnt have AQ or JJ or QQ or AA) With 2 queens and 1 jack gone, QJ is 9 combos.
December 24, 2013
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but yah, please fold pre. youre only ending up in poor reverse implied odd spots at best and giving 2bb away most of the time at best. i assume youre folding without two pair or trips or draws. so yah, youre giving away 2bb a ton, and when you connect, youre guaranteed to be behind or crushed (crushed would be getting it in as a draw somewhere against better draws), so you never want action, whereas in a normal semibluffing spot, you have equity. your equity is sort of fuzzy because there are a ton of speculative hands that crush you.
April 26, 2013
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Thanks guys… you convinced me to jsut fold my 32s, especially if we are not sitting ultra-deep.
November 4, 2013
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Sen said:
Thanks guys… you convinced me to jsut fold my 32s, especially if we are not sitting ultra-deep.
You mean to say “you convinced me to just fold my 32s, even when we are ultra-deep. Right?
The only time it is valuable having 23s in your range, is when your range consists of exactly AA… and everyone at the table knows your range is exactly AA.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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Definitely fold preflop. It's certainly fine to have these hands in your range when you're really deep, but the problem is it's always so hard to define where that line is. It all depends on how likely villains are to show aggression, how many free cards they'll give you, how much value you can get when you do hit a big hand…it's all so subjective. But here, I'd need to be a lot deeper than 47bb with probably more than just a raise and a call ahead of me before I would speculate with 32s.
April 26, 2013
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OneTime1Time said:
Sen said:
Thanks guys… you convinced me to jsut fold my 32s, especially if we are not sitting ultra-deep.
You mean to say “you convinced me to just fold my 32s, even when we are ultra-deep. Right?
The only time it is valuable having 23s in your range, is when your range consists of exactly AA… and everyone at the table knows your range is exactly AA.
Why do you think this should always be a fold? I don't think ANY hand should always be a fold. There are a few that should probably be a fold 99,98% of the time… still I think 32s can be played more often than say 82o. Depending on player behaviour, stack size, position and action at the table.
February 10, 2014
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There's been enough talk about folding pre – and for the record…I agree.
But I do find the river bet interesting. It is such an odd size river bet, I do wonder what you guys think of Villain's range here. I mean is this really a value over-bet?
Does AQ EVER take this line?
QJ, a better flush and/or air is about all I can find in his range by the river and the only one that makes sense with the given action is probably air. I mean, wouln't QJ throw a value bet of like 7999 out there almost always?
OP – do you have a read on Villain at all? Is he spewy enough to make this overbet with Ax?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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KayHayKid said:
wouln't QJ throw a value bet of like 7999 out there almost always?
Why do you assume QJ or other very strong hands would use this sizing?
February 10, 2014
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Foucault said:
KayHayKid said:
wouln't QJ throw a value bet of like 7999 out there almost always?
Why do you assume QJ or other very strong hands would use this sizing?
Maybe cause I'm bad a poker? 
Yes, my read would be that he would want to extract some value out of worse calling hands, so what that sizing looks like could be debated, and I'm interested to hear your thoughts, but are you suggesting that the overbet could be exactly that – overbet for value?
Just to be clear, I'm folding this all day long, but I do think it's still interesting to discuss what range of hands makes this large river bet. Do I have him ranged about right in your opinion?
If you are Villian in this hand, what are you doing on the river with a full house and what are you doing with a flush?
Appreciate your valued input in advance!
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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KayHayKid said:
my read would be that he would want to extract some value out of worse calling hands
In fact, he should want to get a lot of value from them! He should make the biggest bet that he can expect his value target to pay off! If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should watch my “Getting Paid” series, which is all about value betting.
Bottom line: a particular size of bet doesn't HAVE to mean anything. People can make small or large value bets and small or large bets depending on the situation, what they think you expect them to do, etc. I don't think it's a good idea to just randomly guess what your opponent is doing and then play exploitably as a result. It is, however, a great idea to look for player-specific tendencies that you can exploit.
There is some math to guide you when you aren't sure, though. Specifically, you should call small bets more often than large bets. This is true even though your opponent should have a less bluff-heavy range when he makes a small bet. That's the magic of pot odds!
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