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May 30, 2012
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Active reg, has seen me check value hands to induce and has seen me pot control and bet/fold flops and turns
PokerStars – $30+$3|600/1200 NL – Holdem – 8 players UTG: 41,665.00 UTG posts ante 125.00, UTG+1 posts ante 125.00, MP posts ante 125.00, MP+1 posts ante 125.00, CO posts ante 125.00, BTN posts ante 125.00, Hero posts ante 125.00, BB posts ante 125.00, Hero posts SB 600.00, BB posts BB 1,200.00 Pre Flop: (2800.00) Hero has Jc Kd fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2,640.00, BB calls 1,440.00 Flop: (6280.00, 2 players) Qd 3c 8c Turn: (11304.00, 2 players) 6s River: (22168.00, 2 players) 9c |
Double barrel or check/fold turn imo?
These spots I like to limp in the SB and min bet on flop, opponent nearly always will miss flop and will fold. Prevents big pot oop blind vs blind where ranges can be so wide and hard to hand read.
May 30, 2012
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hawkeyeK9 said:
Double barrel or check/fold turn imo?
These spots I like to limp in the SB and min bet on flop, opponent nearly always will miss flop and will fold. Prevents big pot oop blind vs blind where ranges can be so wide and hard to hand read.
This is really really easy to exploit. Don't recommend it. When I see people doing this I will just start raising their bets otf extremely wide. Also KJo bvb would be a waste played like this.
To the hand then. I would either doublebarrel or check/fold the turn but it's because I'm really uncomfortable playing bvb and overall suck at it. Also the problem with doublebarreling is that it's really easy for the villain to just doublefloat as we are relatively deep. I would try to avoid spots like these with good regs and let them spew away bvb when we really do have a hand and they want to keep playing back at us. So my line would be just giving up ott but even for me it feels kinda weak.
NST said:
hawkeyeK9 said:
Double barrel or check/fold turn imo?
These spots I like to limp in the SB and min bet on flop, opponent nearly always will miss flop and will fold. Prevents big pot oop blind vs blind where ranges can be so wide and hard to hand read.
This is really really easy to exploit. Don't recommend it. When I see people doing this I will just start raising their bets otf extremely wide. Also KJo bvb would be a waste played like this.
To the hand then. I would either doublebarrel or check/fold the turn but it's because I'm really uncomfortable playing bvb and overall suck at it. Also the problem with doublebarreling is that it's really easy for the villain to just doublefloat as we are relatively deep. I would try to avoid spots like these with good regs and let them spew away bvb when we really do have a hand and they want to keep playing back at us. So my line would be just giving up ott but even for me it feels kinda weak.
As far as that line goes, it is not that easy to exploit. I am doing it with my entire range and few people adjust. When they do, I defend with my whole range and it is impossible to peg me on a hand. I am fine with playing post flop in sticky spots with a disquised range.
May 30, 2012
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I dont think always double barrelling is good because he can instantly raise turns and be super profitable. we also get less value with our value hands since we dont ever get 3 streets of value.
In this particular hand i think we have some SDV and can float turn and get to showdown/realise equity on alot of rivers. He also gives us more information on this turn than we give him as our range is still relatively uncapped and wide (if anything we are overrepping our hand he as when we call turn it looks like SDV)
while his becomes slightly more polarised when he bets and he would check behind alot of value hands to induce, and to prevent a check/jam from us on the turn with our strong draws/smaller 2 pairs/airbiscuits.
his turn bet also doesnt represent that many combos so he is much more likely to be trying to just take the pot down rather than betting for value? thoughts?
May 30, 2012
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Not sure if it’s just me but I would probably bet the turn with my entire range here. Obviously if I float the flop with air I’m betting here but also if I have somekind of a weak sdvalue hand I want to protect it and I can also valuebet it versus Ax. The board ain’t super wet because you nearly never have clubs here. However there is hands like JT, 9T in your range that have also the gutshot with overs (like if I have A6 for example). I also bet all my draws here.
Now when he bets the river here I think his range is really polarized. The problem here with calling is that what do we really beat? We beat KT and we split with KJ. And that’s pretty much it.
May 30, 2012
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i probably check back Qx and some 8x at least some of the time (As the villain), to try allow sb to spew off on the river.
I agree calling river sucks because we only beat a few of his bluffs
whats up with his bet sizing tho?
surely flushes, straights just jam for max value? and he might even bet/fold KQ QJ Q10 on that runout.
June 15, 2012
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Duggs posted this hand on Skype last night and asked for some input so here is my $0.02.
Normally as played I like a double barrel/give up on the river, but by betting the flop and check/calling the turn we narrow the range of hands we should have here quite a bit. By betting check/calling then check/jamming the river we get villian off so many showdown hands that he will go for thing value with on the river, and quite alot of his stronger hands he might have. However, if villian is likely to be airballing here alot after we give him the chance to take it away on the turn, i.e if villian is capable of a double float, then our hand looks pretty nutted. Also, as we're holding the Jc we block quite a few value hands he might take this line with, I don't think we can ever take this line without a blocker like this.
I definatly agree that if villian has any sort of nutted hand he will jam the river, it looks slightly bluffier and will extract max value from alot of 1/2pair hand you have been pot controlling on the turn. I also feel that villian should check back most of his 1 pair type hands (KQ/QJ/QT etc etc) but will often bet his 2nd pair type hands (8x for example) to get us off our Qx type hands that we pot control the turn with as he probably thinks this small bet will look super strong to us and he will fold always. He may also take this line with hands like 9xTc and think the same way.
Feel free to disagree etc but I think that check/calling turn and check/jamming river looks pretty nutted vs a thinking villian bvb.
May 30, 2012
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when i went back and looked at that hand today I realised how helpful having the Jc is since his value range is like QQ, QKcc Q10cc since we block QJcc and J10cc and so many other fds will raise flop or 3bet pre, ie AQcc AKcc, and since sets/flushes/straights all jam that river for max value and Qx and weaker check back that river (or go for thin value but will rarely bet/call, almost alway bet/fold). and he will bet Ax Kx and may try turn 8x or 3x into a bluff.
imho,
JStarkey said:
Duggs posted this hand on Skype last night and asked for some input so here is my $0.02.
Normally as played I like a double barrel/give up on the river, but by betting the flop and check/calling the turn we narrow the range of hands we should have here quite a bit. By betting check/calling then check/jamming the river we get villian off so many showdown hands that he will go for thing value with on the river, and quite alot of his stronger hands he might have. However, if villian is likely to be airballing here alot after we give him the chance to take it away on the turn, i.e if villian is capable of a double float, then our hand looks pretty nutted. Also, as we're holding the Jc we block quite a few value hands he might take this line with, I don't think we can ever take this line without a blocker like this.
I definatly agree that if villian has any sort of nutted hand he will jam the river, it looks slightly bluffier and will extract max value from alot of 1/2pair hand you have been pot controlling on the turn. I also feel that villian should check back most of his 1 pair type hands (KQ/QJ/QT etc etc) but will often bet his 2nd pair type hands (8x for example) to get us off our Qx type hands that we pot control the turn with as he probably thinks this small bet will look super strong to us and he will fold always. He may also take this line with hands like 9xTc and think the same way.
Feel free to disagree etc but I think that check/calling turn and check/jamming river looks pretty nutted vs a thinking villian bvb.
I like your thoughts. My only question though is if we are representing the flush on the river are we really gonna check hoping the villian will bet? Feel like we would be more likely to lead river for value rather than take a chance for a check/jam when we would not get much value from it if we think villian is folding a majority of the time.
June 8, 2012
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JStarkey said:
I also feel that villian should check back most of his 1 pair type hands (KQ/QJ/QT etc etc) but will often bet his 2nd pair type hands (8x for example) to get us off our Qx type hands that we pot control the turn with as he probably thinks this small bet will look super strong to us and he will fold always. He may also take this line with hands like 9xTc and think the same way.
I dont think that he is betting 8 on the turn that often. His opponent definitely wont fold Q type hands on the turn, so if he wants to make this play, he is have to be prepared to bet river and I really dont like this play in his shoes, especially if he holding second pair. I also think that this wont be working anyway. Top pair BVB is such a strong hand to fold and you rarely find an opponent who is capable to fold here.
There are basically three options. He value bets his Q type hands, he hits his flush (maybe TJ for straight) or he is bluffing here. I actually may find call on the river sometimes, however you of course need to know if the player you are standing against if capable to make this play. If he is good reg, he probably wont turning his A high to a bluff on that board, so you are good here. If I decided to make this play, I will call the turn and than call the river like 90% of times. If I dont want to make this play, I will probably just fold the turn.
May 30, 2012
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an extremely low number of combos we can call and beat, our check/call turn indicates draws or sdv so likely he wil turn Ax into bluffs as its a scary river and draws got there and i checked so im usually folding.
also relative strength of Qx here lessened alot on that river.
June 19, 2012
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This is an active reg in position on a relatively dry flop. I expect him to be floating you here quite frequently. That being said, i would be check-raising this turn. I prefer this to double barreling as it allows him to put in the bluff that he oh so wants to do, and it also has the added benefit that he might bet-fold a weak pair, that would have called if we had just bet again. I don’t like the check-call on the turn so much as he can still have a bunch of “floats” that beat you, A-highs, maybe hes trying to protect bottom pair etc.
As played I’m folding the river. A whole bunch of flush combos are definitly in your perceived range so it would be a brave bullet to fire from him if he is bluffing.
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