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Can I fold a small flush in this spot? Help appreciated
dragontamer
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June 15, 2010 - 10:53 pm
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I find myself in this position more often than I would like, and I’m not sure if I just need to get all my chips in here, or if I should be folding.

 

Here are my reads:

 

My image at the table:

 

Fairly aggressive. I have been entering too many pots lately, but that is mainly because I’ve been card-racking. Table has been folding a lot to me however, so they don’t know I’ve had good hands.

 

 

UTG+1 is a super-aggro bluffer. He makes overly large bluffs, and has gotten all-in and sucked out on a couple people already. He was the big stack at one point, but people know he is bluffing a lot and have started standing up to him and taking his chips.

 

Button is a solid abc TAG. I haven’t seen him get out of line yet. Here is the hand:

 

 

No-Limit Hold’em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (9 handed) – Hold’em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 (t7306)
MP3 (t8875)
CO (t17650)
Button (t9874)
SB (t3721)
Hero (BB) (t8939)
UTG (t9846)
UTG+1 (t6772)
MP1 (t15737)

[color=#009B00]Hero’s M: 29.80[/color]

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/spade.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/spade.gif
[color=#666666]1 fold[/color], [color=#CC3333]UTG+1 bets t600[/color], [color=#666666]4 folds[/color], Button calls t600, [color=#666666]1 fold[/color], Hero calls t400

Flop: (t1900) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/spade.gif [color=#009B00](3 players)[/color]
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, Button checks

Turn: (t1900) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/spade.gif [color=#009B00](3 players)[/color]
[color=#CC3333]Hero bets t1111[/color], UTG+1 calls t1111, [color=#CC3333]Button raises t2499[/color], Hero calls t1388, UTG+1 calls t1388

River: (t9397) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/club.gif [color=#009B00](3 players)[/color]
Hero checks, [color=#CC3333]UTG+1 bets t3673 (All-In)[/color], [color=#CC3333]Button raises t6775 (All-In)[/color], Hero calls t5840 (All-In)

Total pot: t24750

 

I know a lot of people are probably going to be thinking – Just fold pre. That is possibly best, but assuming you call, how do you proceed with the hand?

 

Here was my thinking:

 

On the flop when it gets checked around, I am condifent neither play would check a king here – so I pretty much rule out every hand with a king. That actually narrows button’s range down to pocket pairs and suited connectors in my mind.

 

On the turn, obviously I feel like I’m ahead, and I want to get value from any pocket pairs, or if they are drawing to a 4 card flush. UTG+1’s call doesn’t tell me much due the the spastic way he plays, but I am assuming he is drawing to a 4 card flush.  When button raises into both of us I feel pretty strongly that I am beat, and I am guessing it is by a bigger flush.

 

Things that go through my mind – could button have checked a king on that flop, in which case I have him beat? I don’t think he would do that, but I can’t say it is impossible. Would he raise an overpair like AA here? Possible, he could think I’m trying to pick up the pot here by representing a flush – I think this is unlikely though. He would want a cheap showdown in that case I suspect. Did he hit a bigger flush? I feel like this is by far the most likely situation – but certainly not a lock.

 

How do you play this hand out after the flop? Appreciate any advice.

 

 

JDOG1645
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June 16, 2010 - 12:27 am
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You lead the turn showing strength into 2 others and get called and then raised by the solid guy. Im not liking that but I dont hate your call. I like your check on the river but when  UTG +1 the aggro guy shove then the button shoves he is saying he isnt worried to much about you especially after the action on the turn. Your beat here like 95% of the time, expect to see fullhouses and or better flushes.

I would play it by checking turn and maybe call depending on the action and check river and play small ball on this board. I dont think either has a K but I suspect by the river 77 or 66 is likely Im folding to this action on the river. Its 3 way any your opponents showed a lot of action on turn and river, based on that I think your hand is pretty weak.

plessis204
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June 16, 2010 - 1:59 am
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fold pre obv. I’d say you can safely fold river as palyed.

DaNta5tiC
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June 16, 2010 - 2:14 am
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agree fold pre to never put yourself in big pots with marginal spots!!!!!!

bigdogpckt5s
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June 16, 2010 - 1:43 pm
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I honestly dont hate defending with the suited connectors out of the bb. So folding pre is prolly optimal but dont have a issue with it. As played given your read about the guy who hasnt gotten out of line folding the river is fine. Having said that your hand obviously has some value so this is a hard 1 to answer. Some spots id fold some Id call. Go with your read is all I can say. Most times I dont hate call here.

dragontamer
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June 16, 2010 - 5:10 pm
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Thanks for the comments all.

 

While folding pre here might be best, I defend with suited connectors a lot. I feel like my post flop play is decent, and the best way to improve it is to keep getting into ugly situations like this.

 

I really wanted to fold to the turn raise – I knew that I was likely beat. But I couldn’t decide how likely it was that I was good. 10%? 30%? Jdog says 5% and while I want to roll my eyes at that, I have to admit that taking into account my strong read on the button (We’d been playing almost 100 hands together and I knew what type of player he was) 5% might be about right. Against a random, I think I’m good here at least some of the time. I’ve made this call in the past a few times (I guess I defend my blind with these type of hands too much) and against bad players I am often good in this spot – especially with the aggro image I often have.

 

I hate folding a hand like this when I hit my best possible cards and make the flush, but I think if I’m going to improve I need to get better at folding the second best hand. One of my biggest leaks is refusing to lay down a big hand, even when I have a loud voice in my head telling me I need to fold.

 

Results:

 

UTG+1 AA with no spade draw

Button 66 – nice call on that one jdog

JDOG1645
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June 16, 2010 - 5:25 pm
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Throw the dog a bone Cool  Yeah heads up against UTG I wouldnt fold either based on your reads. I also know what you mean about laying down a big hand. In a cash game $1/2 I made quad aces and the villain was a super nit. There was the chance that royal straight flush got there but I couldnt lay the quads down…sooooo long $500.

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