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Cbet medium pair on paired flop multiway?
almofadinhas
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April 16, 2018 - 6:51 pm
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Hello TPE!

I am doing HH review, I remember how unsure I was about to cbet this one, and still am:

Merge, $11 Buy-in (150/300 blinds, 30 ante) No Limit Hold’em Tournament, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager – The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: 10,196 (34 bb)
BB: 3,700 (12.3 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): 14,261 (47.5 bb)
MP1: 8,887 (29.6 bb)
MP2: 12,940 (43.1 bb)
MP3: 10,314 (34.4 bb)
CO: 8,650 (28.8 bb)
BTN: 3,223 (10.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 9club 9heart
Hero raises to 600, MP1 calls 600, 4 folds, SB calls 450, BB calls 300

Flop: (2,640) 4spade Tspade Theart (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero ?

Ranges:
MP1: 22+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,ATo+,KQo
SB: JJ, 99-55, 33-22, TdTc, 4d4h, 4d4c, 4h4c, AJs, A9s-A5s, A3s-A2s, KJs+, K9s-K6s, QJs, Q9s-Q8s, J9s, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, AdTd, AcTc, KdTd, KcTc, QdTd, QcTc, JdTd, JcTc, Td9d, Tc9c, Td8d, Tc8c, Ad4d, Ah4h, Ac4c, AQo-AJo, AdTc, AhTd, AhTc, AsTd, AsTc, AcTd
BB: 77-55, 33-22, 4d4h, 4d4c, 4h4c, A5s, A3s-A2s, K9s-K5s, K3s-K2s, Q9s-Q5s, Q3s-Q2s, J9s-J5s, J3s-J2s, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 53s, 32s, KdTd, KcTc, QdTd, QcTc, JdTd, JcTc, Td9d, Tc9c, Td8d, Tc8c, Td7d, Tc7c, Td6d, Tc6c, Td5d, Tc5c, Ad4d, Ah4h, Ac4c, Kd4d, Kh4h, Kc4c, Qd4d, Qh4h, Qc4c, Jd4d, Jh4h, Jc4c, 6d4d, 6h4h, 6c4c, 5d4d, 5h4h, 5c4c, 4d3d, 4h3h, 4c3c, 4d2d, 4h2h, 4c2c, K9o-K5o, K3o-K2o, Q9o-Q5o, J9o-J6o, 96o+, 85o+, 75o+, 65o, KdTc, KhTd, KhTc, KsTd, KsTc, KcTd, Kd4h, Kd4c, Kh4d, Kh4c, Ks4d, Ks4h, Ks4c, Kc4d, Kc4h, QdTc, QhTd, QhTc, QsTd, QsTc, QcTd, Qd4h, Qd4c, Qh4d, Qh4c, Qs4d, Qs4h, Qs4c, Qc4d, Qc4h, JdTc, JhTd, JhTc, JsTd, JsTc, JcTd, Td9h, Td9s, Td9c, Tc9d, Tc9h, Tc9s, Td8h, Td8s, Td8c, Tc8d, Tc8h, Tc8s, Td7h, Td7s, Td7c, Tc7d, Tc7h, Tc7s, 7d4h, 7d4c, 7h4d, 7h4c, 7s4d, 7s4h, 7s4c, 7c4d, 7c4h, 6d4h, 6d4c, 6h4d, 6h4c, 6s4d, 6s4h, 6s4c, 6c4d, 6c4h, 5d4h, 5d4c, 5h4d, 5h4c, 5s4d, 5s4h, 5s4c, 5c4d, 5c4h

If I had 9spade, that would make me more inclined to cbet/fold, cbet/GII against one, check/fold? I can´t decide if blocking a small part of possible flush draws out there makes me more inclined to raise OTF or not (adding blockers concept to study here)

Spoiler just for fun laugh

Hero checks, MP1 bets 300, SB calls 300, BB folds, Hero calls 300

Turn: (3,540) 9diamond (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets 1,770, SB raises to 3,540, Hero calls 3,540, MP1 raises to 7,957 and is all-in, SB calls 4,417, Hero raises to 13,331 and is all-in, SB calls 1,309 and is all-in

River: (30,029) Jspade (3 players, 3 are all-in)

Results: 30,029 pot
Final Board: 4spade Tspade Theart 9diamond Jspade
SB showed Aheart Tdiamond and lost (-10,196 net)
Hero showed 9club 9heart and won 30,029 (19,833 net)
MP1 showed Aspade Tclub and lost (-8,887 net)

theginger45

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April 17, 2018 - 10:56 am
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Consider what your overall c-betting strategy is for this flop. If you might c-bet 99 as the middle player of three on this flop, what else are you c-betting? What are your bluffs? How are you going to ensure your checking range isn’t face-up? Does it even matter if your checking range is face-up here?

These are all questions that need to be answered before we can figure out if betting is optimal with 99.

almofadinhas
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April 17, 2018 - 1:39 pm
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Considering my UTG opening range of AA-22,AKo-AJo,KQo,AKs-ATs,KQs,QJs,JTs (142 combos)

What I am cbetting:
AA-JJ, flush draw, (24+5 = 29 combos)

Check/folding:
33-22, overcard without flush draw, (12+63 = 75 combos)

Check/call GII:
trips+ (8 combos)

Check/call or folding depending on the action:
99-55, (30 combos)

I am check folding too much, over 50% of the time, maybe I should cbet overcards with backdoor flush on multiways; and offsuited overcards with a spade in it when HU, does that make sense?

theginger45

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April 17, 2018 - 6:51 pm
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I misread the spot, I thought you were the middle of three players but you’re the 3rd of 4. That accentuates most of my flop concerns.

Few more questions:

1. What factor is it that leads you to want to bet JJ, but not 99?

2. When you bet flop and get called, which hands are you bluffing with when the flush completes the turn?

3. What factor is it that makes you prefer check-raising (I assume you meant to write check/raise GII) with Tx, while betting with JJ+?

4. Going back to preflop, what factors make 22 a raise for you here preflop while hands like T9s and A5s are folding?

5. You seem concerned about your high check-folding frequency on this flop. This indicates you’re worried villains might exploit it, and suggests you’re trying to construct an optimal, less exploitable strategy here. If this is the case, don’t you think we should do something about those extremely value-heavy betting and check-raising ranges first?

Either those betting and check-raising ranges are perfectly fine to exploit our opponents’ tendencies (meaning check-folding a lot is also fine as an exploitative strategy), or we need to balance both our betting ranges and our check-folding frequency. I don’t see a scenario in which we’re totally okay with being really unbalanced with our betting ranges, but really paranoid about our check-folding frequency being exploited.

I think c-betting some different types of hands would probably be okay, but it’s not easy to increase your c-betting frequencies multiway. I think your best approach here when squeezed in the middle of four players is just to check your entire range, and then build c/c or c/r ranges according to the action in front of you. You’re having enough trouble balancing a betting range here that I think you would benefit from removing it entirely.

almofadinhas
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April 18, 2018 - 5:24 pm
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Very good questions! Here we go:

1. What factor is it that leads you to want to bet JJ, but not 99?
 

I really haven´t thought about it; I think this goes into my automatic cbetting overpair, and trying to control the pot with a underpair to the board; and I realize now that we are multiway and doesn´t make too much difference having an overpair when the board is paired, (maybe situations like the board runing 4TT JJ/QQ/KK/AA, which will happen rarely);

2. When you bet flop and get called, which hands are you bluffing with when the flush completes the turn?

Assuming this multiway pot, with a cbetting range of AA-JJ and flush draws:
          – If I am OOP I would bet small my flush draws and overcards (vs MP1, with SPR ~1.3 OTT, assuming ~50% bet pot OTF);
          – If I am IP I would probably get a free card if I don´t improve my hand, (hard to fold vs the short stack on BB);
          – If I got two, or three calls, I am most likely to give up.

3. What factor is it that makes you prefer check-raising (I assume you meant to write check/raise GII) with Tx, while betting with JJ+?

Sorry, my call was to slowplaying on the flop, GII if someone shove or make a big comitted raise;

4. Going back to preflop, what factors make 22 a raise for you here preflop while hands like T9s and A5s are folding?

I find it hard to play, on this field, hands like A5s or T9s from EP, awhile low pocket pairs will be easier.

Players will call too much leaving me oop on multiway pots.

5. You seem concerned about your high check-folding frequency on this flop. This indicates you’re worried villains might exploit it, and suggests you’re trying to construct an optimal, less exploitable strategy here. If this is the case, don’t you think we should do something about those extremely value-heavy betting and check-raising ranges first?

Either those betting and check-raising ranges are perfectly fine to exploit our opponents’ tendencies (meaning check-folding a lot is also fine as an exploitative strategy), or we need to balance both our betting ranges and our check-folding frequency. I don’t see a scenario in which we’re totally okay with being really unbalanced with our betting ranges, but really paranoid about our check-folding frequency being exploited.

I think c-betting some different types of hands would probably be okay, but it’s not easy to increase your c-betting frequencies multiway. I think your best approach here when squeezed in the middle of four players is just to check your entire range, and then build c/c or c/r ranges according to the action in front of you. You’re having enough trouble balancing a betting range here that I think you would benefit from removing it entirely.  

I like the idea to remove all my cbet range on such spots and acting depending on the action from other players.

theginger45

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April 23, 2018 - 6:59 pm
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almofadinhas said
Very good questions! Here we go:

I like the idea to remove all my cbet range on such spots and acting depending on the action from other players.  

For some reason your full post hasn’t been quoted here and I can’t get it to appear, but I’ll address a couple of points:

1. If you haven’t thought about why you would be betting an overpair here and not 99, then this is where your problems are coming from. You’re autopiloting these spots too much.

2. My point was that if your flop betting range is narrowed to value and flush draws, you simply have no bluffs on some turns. But if you expand your flop bluffing range, you might be bluffing too much. This is why multiway spots are tricky.

3. Having no c/r range here is most likely better than having purely value, so this is good to hear.

4. What’s easiest isn’t always the most profitable. A5s and T9s are better hands to open than 22-44 in almost any spot – there shouldn’t really be situations where you’re folding those hands but opening 22. If you find those hands difficult to play post, you’re probably not playing them aggressively enough when you flop draws, or playing them too aggressively when you flop pairs.

5. I think never c-betting OOP multiway would benefit you greatly in the short term. It would certainly make this specific spot a lot easier.

DuckinDaDeck
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April 25, 2018 - 3:42 pm
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I think these questions are excellent, and kudos to you Almo for taking the time to answer them thoroughly. I love Matt’s feedback, a lot to think about and work on. Yet another time that the more I learn, the less I know.

As to A5s/T9s vs low pockets, I think it’s important to consider how often they hit flops. Suited aces and connectors can profitably bet or call flops (and turns/rivers) much more often than 22, although I 100% agree that you will get into many more tricky spots.

Tricky situations are not necessarily a bad thing. Improving your ability to navigate difficult decisions is one of the most important skills you can develop in poker. I believe that for most players, once you’ve learned postflop fundamentals and solid preflop strategy, improving your approach to marginal flop and turn situations is the best way to increase your ROI. Study can be a large part of this, but I think there is no substitute for experience. Even if you make a bunch of mistakes along the way (hint: you will), your medium to long term growth will be worth it 100 times over.

I think that even the best players in the world get into spots that they find very tricky on a regular basis. I’m barely okay at poker after 2 years playing professionally, so I get into at least 25 spots that make me hate my life (or at least get tagged for review) in almost every session.

Suited hands will hit flush draws almost as often as pocket pairs will hit a set or better. T9s hits 2pair+ 5.6% of the time while A5s does so 4.63% of the time. If you only include 8+ out draws and 2pair+, they hit 24.4% of flops. Conversely, 22-44 only flop the same range 14.9% of the time, and low 1 card FDs are 2.2% of that.

Flopping any pair with T9/A5s (29% of flops) will almost always be stronger than missing the flop with a low pocket, and these hands also give you better blockers for bluffing / bluff-catching in many situations. Even on flops that you whiff, you’ll occasionally backdoor a nutty hand.

As a general rule, I prefer T8s to 44 from every position at >=25bb.

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