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Check raise on the river
TightlyWound
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October 3, 2018 - 7:24 pm
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Blinds 150/250 (bb ante structure), utg opens to 600, I call on the button w/K10.  Flop is K86ss. He bets 1k I call.  Turn 8 goes xx. River is a 4.  He checks I bet 1k.  He check raises to 6500.  I am thinking to myself why would he check raise here as I am not going to bet the river with too much frequency.  Curious to know if my line of thinking here makes sense and if the overall line is ok.

TightlyWound
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October 3, 2018 - 7:51 pm
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Stacks were approx. 25k each

Foucault

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October 4, 2018 - 8:18 am
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You’re right that you probably won’t face a check-raise too often in this spot, but that doesn’t necessarily imply anything about how you should respond when you do face a check-raise.

If this is a nine-handed table it’s a fold pre against decent or tight players.

TightlyWound
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October 4, 2018 - 9:25 am
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Utg is a bad reg who is very loose aggressive.  Against an unknown or tight player opening in that position I do agree with you and would fold K10 pre.  The two blinds seemed to be tight/passive, so I wasn’t particularly worried about getting 3 bet by one of them.

TightlyWound
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October 4, 2018 - 9:40 am
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I guess what I was asking myself at the time was would he risk losing value with big hands like trip 8s, AK, & KQ, by not leading out on the river. I was value betting and I assume he understood that so I think he would have to have a pretty tight range of value hands. Would this be correct to assume?  That was my reasoning and therefore I doubted he would check the river after the turn had just gone check check.

rppoker
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October 4, 2018 - 9:56 pm
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TightlyWound said
I guess what I was asking myself at the time was would he risk losing value with big hands like trip 8s, AK, & KQ, by not leading out on the river. I was value betting and I assume he understood that so I think he would have to have a pretty tight range of value hands. Would this be correct to assume?  That was my reasoning and therefore I doubted he would check the river after the turn had just gone check check.  

I agree that it should have been a pre-flop fold.

But you called so let’s think it out from there. If he flopped a big hand it is not inconceivable that he would check so he could possibly get two streets of value after the turn and river. He was the preflop raiser whereas you just called from late position so it is reasonable for him to believe his range should be better than yours, meaning he might check a highly positive flop for him out of concern that he will drive you out with any bet. The fact that you just called his preflop bet and did not reraise indicates you either have a medium pair or if you do have a king it shouldn’t be A-K so if villain hit the flop hard he probably doesn’t want to raise postflop since he wants to keep you on the hook.

As for what happened after the river, I think it is important to ask what your image is in this situation and what his image is. Has he been making big check raise bluffs after the river? Have you shown a willingness to fold to big bets like this? Without knowing this I would say that you are value betting kind of thin against a player you say is aggressive. You have good showdown value (top pair) but not a monster (your top pair has a mediocre kicker, plus the board is paired) so I think I would say it would have been best to just check it down after the river (but I already know he check-raised you so it’s possible I am being results oriented). One thing you didn’t say is whether the third spade hit on the turn or river, but even if it did not I kind of think just getting to showdown inexpensively is best. Your hand is good not amazing.

Once he check raises it seems he either has you crushed (A-K, K-Q, A-8, 8-8, 6-6) or has complete air (A-Q or something bizarre since you say he is a bad player and raised utg). Would he really check raise the river with QQ, JJ, 10-10, 9-9? You have that beat, but a check raise seems bizarre with those holdings since he should prefer to get to showdown cheap and hope you don’t have the king you do. I suppose he might raise UTG with A-Q, stab after the flop, slow down after the board pairs on the turn (plus he has to be worried you might have a king), and then turn A-Q into a bluff with the river check raise if he feels it is the only way to win the hand.

You say he is a bad player, so the question is just how bad? Does he just overplay hands a bit or is he a completely spewy player who defies logic? You say he is loose aggressive which sounds like he is unpredictable, which also makes me think just checking it down on the river is best since you have a good, not amazing hand.

TightlyWound
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October 4, 2018 - 11:15 pm
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He had A7ss and was bluffing the river.  As played I just assumed he has so few strong hands that he would take this line with I went with my gut that it was a bluff.  I was correct in this instance but I try not to assume just because my read was correct that it was the optimal play.

ScotFish
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October 5, 2018 - 3:43 am
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I’m not too surprised to see him turn up with this hand, as it does fit with his line. (Lead out flop when it’s positive, check turn to re-evaluate as you have shown some strength by calling against what should be a stronger range on that flop, checks river when you have shown weakness, as A high could potentially still be good if it goes check-check, then raises as a bluff when you bet, as it’s clear at this point it’s his only chance of winning). 

I actually quite like his hand selection as far as what hands he can check-raise on the river to make himself harder to play against, as it’s quite hard to find hands that don’t mind too much if it goes check-check, but cannot call a value bet. As rpoker says a lot of what makes this correct or not is circumstantial to the player and whether he overbluffs or similar in this spot, and if he has any value hands that he would try and play the same way. I would say that you’re analysis seems sound on this if you think he would fastplay all his better value hands for fear of missing out, as this should mean that this check-raising range on the river is super unbalanced and you can call this wide. 

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