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Double gutty with 20ish bb in the WPN 12.5K
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Carlos
Atlanta, Ga
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November 28, 2013 - 12:23 am
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Had a hand vs this guy earlier where I 3bet him to about a 1/3 of his stack (I think he had like 25bb) and he flatted. Flop came Qxx flush draw. I shoved for a little over pot and he called with 99. He was running  31/18 over 64 hands.

 

Would you play this differently?

 

[color=darkblue][size=125]Table and Position Review[/size][/color]
[color=darkgreen]Game started at: 2013/11/28 0:10:26
[/color][color=darkgreen]Game ID: 225228318 500/1000 BIG10 – $12,500 GTD, Table 5 (Hold'em)
[/color]Seat 6 is the button
Seat 2: dumbfoundead111 (34375).
Seat 3: ken onslaught (35698).
Seat 4: mikesaari87 (15050).
Seat 5: oddsgod22 (23721).
Seat 6: nyke (24067).
Seat 7: 112233112233 (16475).
Seat 8: Navandep (60908).
Seat 9: GuardDawg (14090).
Player 112233112233 ante (100)
Player Navandep ante (100)
Player GuardDawg ante (100)
Player dumbfoundead111 ante (100)
Player ken onslaught ante (100)
Player mikesaari87 ante (100)
Player oddsgod22 ante (100)
Player nyke ante (100)

[size=125][color=darkblue]*** Blinds ***[/color][/size]
Player 112233112233 has small blind (500)
Player Navandep has big blind (1000)

[size=125][color=darkblue]*** Preflop ***[/color][/size]
Player oddsgod22 received card:  [ Ahheart: ]
Player oddsgod22 received card:  [ Tcclub: ]
Player GuardDawg folds
Player dumbfoundead111 folds
Player ken onslaught folds
Player mikesaari87 folds
Player oddsgod22 raises (2000)
Player nyke folds
Player 112233112233 folds
Player Navandep calls (1000)

[size=125][color=darkblue]*** Flop Pot:5300 ***[/color][/size]
  [ Jhheart: 8ddiamond: Qddiamond: ]
Player Navandep checks
Player oddsgod22 bets (4500)
Player Navandep calls (4500)

[size=125][color=darkblue]*** Turn Pot:14300 ***[/color][/size]
  [ Jhheart: 8ddiamond: Qddiamond: ]   [ Thheart: ]
Player Navandep checks
Player oddsgod22 allin (17121)
Player Navandep calls (17121)

CCuster 911
Delaware

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November 28, 2013 - 6:12 am
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Why so big on flop?  To me it seems liek you are trying to discourage weak hands form calling, which I dont know if I am a fan of.

 

I think I bet like 2700 and cehck 50/50 here.  On turn I effectively give up(although you are slightly more committed then I would be(read; want to be) in this spot.

 

I just think we are not getting much to fold on turn, and our rnage isnt all that strong that even something like Qk might call our shove here.  Not many 9s in your range.

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Carlos
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November 28, 2013 - 11:09 am
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I would play an overpair, two pair, set, or straight the same way in order to set up a turn shove. That may discourage some weaker draws from calling the flop, but most Qx and pair plus draws are coming along anyway in my experience. On the turn, they would have to make a potentially bad call with a draw or give up a good bit of equity in a decent sized pot. My range consists of a lot of draws and monsters. His range consists of mostly draws and marginal hands. My goal was to charge him the max to see the river.  

 

I'll have to get used to giving up on pots that leave me under 20. Currently, I tend to take my shot at it like this instead.

CCuster 911
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November 28, 2013 - 5:08 pm
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So are you only c betting draws+ here?  Lets say you raise 67cc or a7s or something he flats, whats your plan on this flop?  I guess I can see a strat where you are effectively betting any made hand or hand with direct outs, but that seems like a fraction of your range from opening CO(?).  Either way there is a couple things concerning about that, one being you are not setting up a true turn shove as you are still being forced to overbet by over 20%.  The second being, that is a very bad turn for pretty much every hand you listed outside of straight, the top two pairs, and sets. 

 

I would be thinking pot control on this flop.

 

Charging the max seems counterintuitive when we are behind and the guy only needs ~36% to call.

 

I just think this is the nut worst turn to attempt this on.  To me, you are making your range weaker by shoving.  Whether he sees this or not is another question.

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Carlos
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November 28, 2013 - 9:05 pm
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Right, I am not cbetting air on a flop this wet when I only have about 20bb. Most of my range would have hit this in some way besides the smallest of pairs. I wouldnt open small suited connectors from this stack and I wouldnt cbet with Axs unless I flopped a back door flush draw at the very least.

 

I think slightly overbetting the pot is ok, although you are right that 20% may be more than slightly. If so, maybe it would have been better to c-bet full pot. I should have gotten the turn shove smaller but I am not sure if a 1.1x pot bet is significantly worse than a 0.9x pot bet. If nothing else, it does increase the odds he needs to call.

 

On the turn, I am suspecting that he has marginal Qx or Jx hands and draws. I agree that the turn is bad for some of my made hands, but it is pretty good for many of my draws. And I dont think I am good enough to get away from any of my made hands that have redraws once the pot is so big and my stack behind is so small.

 

I charge the max on the turn because I am ahead of draws that may call and I may get him off of marginal hands that may hate that turn. I think hands he was super happy with would just shove the flop on this dangerous board. Given that he didn't, I think he's left with a bluff catcher with a few one card redraws at best. I think a number of villians fold on the turn.

 

I picked the wrong guy in this case, but made a note that he can show up with KJo here and now I can value town him hard in the future.

 

Maybe this is where I am going wrong, but I am never thinking pot control in a pot like this where we are just inside of the money and I dont have much of a stack to preserve. Maybe I should be saving my last few blinds for future hands instead of using them to protect my equity in the pots I open?

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