View Plans & Pricing

If you are signed in and are seeing this message, please be sure you have selected a user name in My Profile. The forum requires it.
A A A
Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
sp_TopicIcon
Flat Calling, 3-betting, and 4-betting
BBird40
Guest
Guests
1
May 10, 2010 - 5:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

As of late I have tried to get aggressive in some of the tourneys I have played. I have posted some hands, and gotten a bunch of great feedback. I am trying to piece all the puzzle together when it comes to pre-flop strategy. I will say the vids are helping my post-flop game, thanks alot guys.

 

My question is: When is best to flat call? 3-bet? or even 4-bet an opponent?

 

Is it better to do this, when you see how an opponent reacts to a 3-bet? and 4-bet?

Is it better to do this when you see a hand that they are capable of 3-betting with? (me personally when I see a person 3-bet and 4-bet, I note…..ex 3-bet=JJ….is this a good habit?..I have been doing it for awhile)

I am noticing that it is better to flat call in position, does that mean you should be liberal to 3-bet or 4-bet out of position?

Should I ever 3-bet to narrow an opponent’s range down? If so, when should I do that? When I have garbage and I just want to take it down pre?

The big thing for me is when is it justifiable to flat call? 3-bet? or 4-bet?

 

Thanks in advance for the replies guys.

plessis204
Guest
Guests
2
May 10, 2010 - 8:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

My two pennies (small stakes obv):

-you can 3bet pretty liberally in mtt’s $26 and under.  People play so passive and straightforward that they’re folding well over half of their opening range in most spots.  Sure there are some idiots who don’t have a fold button, but we can just adjust properly to that.

-know who you’re 3betting, be aware of your image, know who you’ve 3bet before, and what stage of the tournament you’re at.  Some people are just bitches, simply put.  I’ve run in to some people who have come to my table that I have notes on along the lines of “3bet this guy unmercifully”– some guys just like to fold to 3bets.  Even these people will eventually wake up with a hand from time to time, and I know that it’s a leak of mine (I just assume that people are always going to 4bet me light since I’m opening a ton and 3betting quite a bit, but some guys are just really passive until they find JJ+.  basically if you’re going to 4bet shove/calling a 3 or 4bet shove somewhat light, make sure you have a specific read that they are capable of being light.  There is a HUD filter for this, and my fold to 3b and fold to 4b numbers would probably make you vomit.  Take advantage of bubbles, ft bubbles, and ICM spots.

-as an aside to the above note, your image affects other people’s ranges.  Against randoms, your average villain won’t typically show up incredibly light in a 3bet spot or a reshove spot, but if you’re really active, people will take notice and get tired of it.

-As for hands to 3b vs. flat- depends imo.  I like to have a polarized range in 3bet pots; that is to say, my strongest hands hands get 3bet a lot, and I’ll 3bet light if my stack dictates it.  For the most part, if I’m 3betting and get 4bet shoved on, I’m either snap-calling or snap-folding.  Strong but not monstrous hands (ATs, 88 types of hands– stuff that can play postflop and have good equity, but suck at all ins) I’m much more likely to flat, especially if I’m in position.

-shit on late position raises from the button and blinds.

-Be objective.  I’m certainly guilty of just saying “oh yeah, this guy can be light here” and just 4b jam A4s (A4s is a good hand to 4bet shove btw.  Suited A’s and small pairs are your best hands to do it with, because they fair best vs. a range that calls a 4b shove), when really, in hindsight, they show up with a dominating hand everytime.

-re noting- if he 3bets with JJ, I probably don’t note it.  Most people 3b JJ.  If he 3bets 64s, note it.  It’s important to know who at your table is capable of 3betting light vs. who is just a nit 3betting AA.  Along those same lines, note if you see someone flatting 3bettable hands pre (i.e. flatting AA). 

BBird40
Guest
Guests
3
May 11, 2010 - 12:34 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

plessis204 said:

-shit on late position raises from the button and blinds.


 

I love the reply plessis. Thanks for making the time to do this for me. I am reading this and rereading this. Love it, thanks alot.

 

 

The quote above can you elaborate?

 

Also when polarizing your range….this is the mindset I have, correct me if I am wrong. I am trying smash this in my brain.

 

I can 3-bet hands that:

-I will snap fold to a 4bet…this is situational…ex if I have a healthy stack to 3bet light, I can pick some spots to 3-bet a particular opponent that does not react well to 3-bets.

-I will snap call with JJ+, AK, AQs….this can also get wider depending on the opponent, sometimes this happens in micro and sometimes it doesnt…Mostly the micro noobs limp with their shit and 3-bet with strong holdings

 

I want to flat call with:

-Hands that if I faced a 4-bet I would not be happy about…Say my hand I posted earlier, 99 on the button, I really should have asked myself….”ok if he 4-bets me, will I like that? or would I rather see a flop?”

-Play it in position

 

 

 

Another quick question, What spots, situations, players, stages of the tourney, or hands will you 3-bet light with? I have tried to open up a bit and when I see a CU or HJ open raise, I will 3-bet just b/c their range is so wide. I will do it with ATC and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. But either way its win/win b/c if they play back with a 4-bet I am not going to play with the shit I 3-bet with, and sometimes they are like OH SHIT he must have something and fold. Can some1 enlighten me on this situation?

plessis204
Guest
Guests
4
May 11, 2010 - 3:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

BBird40 said:

The quote above can you elaborate?

 

well an open from the HJ/CO/button deserves less credit than one from early position, so you can obviously 3bet those from the blinds or from LP more liberally.  Some people open top 50% from the button (I personally open a little more than that if my table lets me get away with it), and such a small amount of that 50% can continue when facing a 3bet.  Open up pokerstove and figure out just exactly what top 50% is…. it’s a shitload of hands.  I see 95 (and that doesn’t include combos of suits) different values that I open from the button regularly.  This is why I say to shit on late position raises, and is probably why my fold to 3bet stat is so ugly.

 

I can 3-bet hands that:

-I will snap fold to a 4bet…this is situational…ex if I have a healthy stack to 3bet light, I can pick some spots to 3-bet a particular opponent that does not react well to 3-bets.

-I will snap call with JJ+, AK, AQs….this can also get wider depending on the opponent, sometimes this happens in micro and sometimes it doesnt…Mostly the micro noobs limp with their shit and 3-bet with strong holdings

I personally wouldn’t set it in stone like this, perhaps someone else can chime in here, but I don’t have a specific list of hands that I’d flat to a raise and another that I 3b.  There are a lot of determining factors like stacks, positions, gameflow, who’s left to act, etc.  If stacks are deep, I flat a lot of stuff with good implied odds (SC’s, pairs, Axs) that I would 3bet or fold in other spots.  I think something that is pretty important is having blockers.  Like I mentioned earlier, suited A’s are good hands to 3 and 4bet because it makes for one less Ax combo for your opponent to have  (plus they flop less terribly vs. a 4b calling range than stuff like [JTo, A6o, etc]).  For example, let’s say villain calls a 3bet shove with AKs, but folds AKo.  There are 4 possible AKs variations, but 12 AKo variations.  If we have As4s, villain can’t have AsKs, and therefore he can now only 3 AKs combos.  Beyond that, it’s harder for him to have AA since there are only 3 combos of that available as well.

 

Another quick question, What spots, situations, players, stages of the tourney, or hands will you 3-bet light with? I have tried to open up a bit and when I see a CU or HJ open raise, I will 3-bet just b/c their range is so wide. I will do it with ATC and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. But either way its win/win b/c if they play back with a 4-bet I am not going to play with the shit I 3-bet with, and sometimes they are like OH SHIT he must have something and fold. Can some1 enlighten me on this situation?

 

People who open a lot are obviously good candidates to 3b, though they will probably be the ones to adjust and start 4betting wider.  I like to 3bet people who have fishy stats (like 30/14 players) because they’re just clearly not that good if they’re flatting so much that even though they’re only opening top 14%, they aren’t very likely to adjust properly to 3b ranges to 4b correctly, and will probably make big folds when they should be jamming for value or flatting to let me spew at them.  The deeper I am in a tourney, the more spots I look to 3bet, since people just fold to preserve tourney life.  I don’t necessarily pick on shorter stacks, and rarely 3bet light vs a stack of ~20 bb’s without a really specific read.  Instead, pick on the medium stacks.  These are the people with the most to lose deep in a tourney.  The hands don’t really matter (to a certain extent… blockers I guess) if we’re 3betting light.  The main thing is creating an image to make someone shove on you when you have a monster.

BBird40
Guest
Guests
5
May 11, 2010 - 3:43 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Once again thanks for the help plessis. I am trying to get my 3-betting and possible 4-betting in tune. I am trying to notice those situations more and take advantage of them.

 

The more I read about, the more I see it happen, the more I make use of a certain situation…the better I will get at. So talking about certain situations like you did. Someone raising in the CU or HJ, or taking advantage of middle stacks, or even noticing the fishy players is helping. The reason I say this is I want to go through these scenarios in my mind and think to myself, “Yep I have seen this situation before….lots of times.”

 

So once again. Thanks for the indepth reply. The more I read the better I will get. Thanks!

 

 

(You mind if I add you on AIM? Also what is your PS name, I’ll add you to my find a friend list.)

HITTHEPANDA
Guest
Guests
6
May 13, 2010 - 2:03 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Flatcall when you want to play postflop.  3bet as a bluff with hands you don’t mind turning into a bluff(86s,J10o, etc) or with hands you want to get in preflop.  If you feel your opponent is good and is 3betting you because you’ve been opening wide, you can try 4betting him, but I wouldn’t 4bet without a read.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 2780

Currently Online:
6 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

bennymacca: 2616

Foucault: 2067

folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133

praetor: 1033

theginger45: 924

P-aire 146: 832

Turbulence: 768

The Riceman: 731

duggs: 591

florianm1: 588

Newest Members:

Johnelwood

Bocheech21

alexalex2015

oneout2many

JLPicard

Jackarmi

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 24

Topics: 12705

Posts: 75003

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1063

Members: 11990

Moderators: 2

Admins: 5

Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos

Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1