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(4 votes) 
July 6, 2012
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1)
Opening pots the last hand before a break.
Most people have already checked their cards
And are ready to hit the bathroom, dining area,etc.
If you get 3 bet by a tightish player…simply fold.
If another saavy player opens from.middle or late position
This is an excellent time to 3bet with almost any two
2) gf for good players who are isolating fishy limpers.
These are good candidates to 3bet from the button
And you pick up lots of dead $
4 betting from the button against the blinds.
People have caught on that they can 3bet hands like
Ax and medium pairs from the blinds to a LP
raise. However…they are RARELY calling a properly sized 4bet
And almost NEVER 5 betting light. They just dont have it
In their game.
Thoughts or other spots live you can think TPE NATION??
So your saying we should fold to 3bets from tight players?
June 2, 2012
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^ lol. Honestly if you 4b and 5b light in live tournaments you better have the nuts. Unless you are playing against some of the best players in the world. Like Daniel Negreanu said “You really shouldn't have to be 4b and 5b light in tournaments anymore”. Theres simply no need to against weak fields. I've had my fair share of cold 4 bets in my day and honestly they don't work very often. Live players are far too nitty compared to online players. Just play pots IP and punish the live monkeys POST FLOP.
May 30, 2012
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Exactly what JLUDE said………………. Live monkeys don't understand what 4b 5bing light are. You could be repping a bunch of things (flush, str8, set) and they will call you down with only top pair. If I'm 4b or 5bing you, I have a huge hand. lol I'm not calling my stack off with 4d2c lol unless I'm trying to level a wizard or very good thinking player.
July 6, 2012
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I was saying that if you are stealing superlight on
The last hand before break, and get 3bet by a tight player….
Then yes…fold. They are far less likely to be making
A play on the last hand before a break because
They/most people eager to maximize their break time.
In regards to going crazy 4 & 5 betting light….
I wasnt advocating using it with omverabundance
Just simply said if you open a button and an even
Slightly competent player 3 bets from the blinds
, it may be a very easy 4bet spot with a lot of our opening
Range.
October 6, 2010
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they were agreeing with you mate, in fact they were going further, they were saying that you should fold EVERY time a tight player 3bets you
May 30, 2012
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I have been playing a fari amount of live this past month and found that better spots to steal are Post flop. I get what you say about 4bettng from the button, but this only is worth it if you are deep enough which in live tourneys is not very common unless you are playing large buyin events, and in those players are much better.
I have been experimenting more with stealing post flop in position mostly:
1) OOP: Check raising dry flops
2) IP: delay cbetting turns
3) IP: floating and betting turn when checked to
Of course this is all player and board texture dependant.
Also, this is secondary to the bread and butter of live tourneys of extracting max value through bet sizing, all IMHO.
thoughts?
July 11, 2012
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errmm.. no
No to most of the above content ITT…
I'm not sure how to sugar coat this post w/o seriously diluting the meassge. Instead I'll just apologize in advance to any above posters that this offends.
imo – much of the content ITT is flawed and/or vastly overgeneralized. It's incorrect to make blanket statements about live mtt fields or situations. steal/resteal spots be it live or online can't be broken down and simplified into cue card format. this isn't a grocery list guys..
Sure, we can make slight in-game adjustments when playing on different sites or live. I do this regularly, but not to the extreme of sacrificing my style or A game. At the end of the day a pimp gotsta pimp and we gotsta play our best brand of poker.
JLUDEOBV said:
^ lol. Honestly if you 4b and 5b light in live tournaments you better have the nuts. Unless you are playing against some of the best players in the world. Like Daniel Negreanu said “You really shouldn't have to be 4b and 5b light in tournaments anymore”. Theres simply no need to against weak fields. I've had my fair share of cold 4 bets in my day and honestly they don't work very often. Live players are far too nitty compared to online players. Just play pots IP and punish the live monkeys POST FLOP.
No light 4/5betting live, only 4/5b the nuts – So we're just throwing balance out the window when the tourney is irl? Doesn't this make our 4/5 bets w/premiums outrageously transparent? I guess we just wait for kings to 4bet and hope someone is dealt QQ?!? I'm not this lucky nor patient brahj.
Passing up creativite opportunites, resteal spots and opting to never turn our air/missed draws into bluffs is 1st level thinking and way higher variance style of poker imo. Taking all the tricks and wrinkles out of our game essentially nullifies a large portion of our edge over the field, and it dumbs our game down to fit or fold poker. Yes – there's still plenty of profitable spots to extract value vs. stations, but a weak live field surely doesn't justify an ABC style and foregoing our A game.
Last thing for tonight.. If live players are so nitty why shouldn't we 4b/5b light to exploit nit tendencies?
If our cold 4 bets (with trash) rarely work because live players call too much (and lack comprehension of what these extra bets represent), srsly how the fak are they nits?
If live is too nitty compared to online then we can assume they are showing up with tight/defined ranges post. how are we expected to 'punish' them post flop without making moves pre/firing barrels post and without turning our air into bluffs occasionally?
imo best bet when playing live is stick steadfast to your style that got your there in the first place. Take the steal spots and wtv else you see just like you would in any other game (making slight in-game adjustments as needed). if we're properly rolled for the live event and show up prepared to play our best, worst cause ontario we bust 1st level and have some interesting hads to discuss and later improve upon.
October 6, 2010
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firstly, leave the tone at 2p2 mate, it is different here.
secondly, about your point of having to be balanced, who says we have to be balanced?
there is no point being balanced if we can play exploitably but villains wont pick up on it. this is what the other posters are talking about – no point having a balanced 4 betting range when the dude only every 3bets QQ+.
your point about 4 and 5 betting light to exploit them could be true, except for the fact that these villains rarely fold if they 3bet – why? because they have it!!
i am never 4betting light against some random 60 year old dude unless he shows me different first.
May 30, 2012
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the reason a cold 4bet would not work v a nit is because their 3bet range is QQ+ AK. Saying dont take bluffs out of our game is akin to saying we should triple barrel an 80/3 with air, its not +EV because of the players tendencies. lastly generalising based on assumptions is absolutely crucial in poker, otherwise why bother using a hud, making notes, or assigning ranges, they are all just generalisations based on assumptions of players tendencies.
by all means own nits post flop. but that works better with a deeper stack and a range you actually have fold equity against, not a defined QQ+ AK (even through JJ in there half the time if you like). steal like a demon when they limp/open/flat whatever but not when they define their ranges.
nowhere above did it mention that we cant balance our 3betting and 4/5betting ranges v the competent players at the table.
lastly not be blunt but referring to not wanting to sacrifice your style is pretty irrational and makes zero sense. spots are +EV or -EV, some of us miss different spots to others. 4/5betting light into defined tight ranges is a great way to 4b/f your way out of the tournament.
“Last thing for tonight.. If live players are so nitty why shouldn't we 4b/5b light to exploit nit tendencies?”
because 4/5betting isnt exploiting their tendencies, snap folding JJ,QQ, AK when they 4bet us is.
think about the logic of 4/5betting light to exploit a QQ+,AK range
June 2, 2012
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First of all +1 to duggs, I almost always agree with his posts. Basically what I'm saying here is that in a majority of tournaments I play in there really is no need to 4b/5b against the players because the field is so weak in general and if they are 3b theres a good chance they have the nuts. Don't get me a wrong, I'm not a nit. It really is villain dependent but also based on the structure and stack sizes you are rarely able to 4b/5b without being all-in. It's much different when you are playing WSOP Events, especially the Main Event. There's a whole different dynamic then.
Also StrangeFame don't really appreciate you calling me “brahj” so along with the tone lose the picture brahj. It's fine to be blunt when posting but do so respectively.
May 30, 2012
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one last thing, the adjustments away from balanced to exploitative play are based directly on the extent to which our opponent is exploitable. ie the further they deviate from optimal play the further we can adjust to exploit them, so minor adjustments should only apply to minorly incorrect opponents. extremely horrible opponents require much larger adjustments in order to exploit them.
balance is a means of not being exploited and playing optimally v optimal opponents, deviating from balanced play to exploit to opponents is great when there is 0% chance of them adjusting to exploit us.
May 30, 2012
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Not going to cont…. to beat the dead horse, but damn my friend. Relax a little bit. Like Benny said, this isn't 2+2. We are here to learn and get better from each other. Everyone of us has an opinion and no one should feel the need to put anyone down. You telling us “ermmm. No” Just makes you look like you feel your better then most. No one is saying not to agree with others, but tell us why you think you're LINE is better and lets all have a conversation. Unless you're Phil Ivey, everyone can stand to learn from others………. Even Phil. I agree with Benny, JLude, Issac and Duggs…………..
I know some/most of you know more then I do about Poker, but I have thoughts & opinions about spots that maybe you haven't been in or have already dealt with. It's a TRAINING site………………. I'm here to learn and make MILLIONS……. Not here to hate on anyone. You help me I'll help you.
May 30, 2012
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By the way, I like Kingten for starting off the thread because it brought up some good discussion…….. Plus, he's a beast and I'll listen
Jlude: 1
Duggs:1
Benny:1
Strangefame:0
TiltedEV: popcorn
July 3, 2010
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The problem with light 4 betting vs a nit is that you aren't expoiting their nit tendencies when they are too stubborn/stupid to fold JJ and QQ, and the nit's 3b range is so narrowed to just JJ+ and AK. I've seen so many nits flat AQs and never 3b it.
Light 5 betting is essentially suicide because they still don't fold and you're getting it in vs. a range where you're basically in a 70/30 or 80/20 every time.
I think the concept of balance is vastly overrated. It's something a lot of people discuss, fewer understand, and even fewer than that actually require a balanced attacking range.
TPE Pro
June 14, 2012
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They get scared when you say “all in” on the river.
August 13, 2012
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I agree with OP and a lot of the reactions here. I'm new to TPE and this is my first post so I don't have anything really substantive to add other than I agree that light X betting is often suicide in a lot of these live MTTs and I feel like the perceived/actual softness of these types of tournaments really stunts my game a lot. I sometimes don't know how I can really play creatively and I feel like I end up just being a nit waiting for big hands. I guess basic TAG works but sometimes I wonder where my edge is coming from, if that makes sense to anyone?
I like to defend any two out of the big blind and check raise every flop. This is something the fish have never seen so they will be blown away.
July 3, 2010
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Yeah – I think you can **** around so much more postflop than preflop against the average live idiot. I don't see enough folding pre to justify making really high variance moves.
**** around is a technical term, obviously.
TPE Pro
June 14, 2012
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I like to defend any two out of the big blind and check raise every flop. This is something the fish have never seen so they will be blown away.
LOL. Surely a level.
Even some huge live nits don’t think the button ever has a hand and will 3b sort of light from the blinds sometimes right?
Edit: sigh I’m on my phone so Ryan’s post I’m quoting (1st paragraph) didn’t show up as a quote FYI.
Also, I agree with coolers….steal pots postflop when you have more information and know what cards will scare your average live player who is not particularly good at hand reading.
October 6, 2010
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AllDayMcCray said:
I agree with OP and a lot of the reactions here. I'm new to TPE and this is my first post so I don't have anything really substantive to add other than I agree that light X betting is often suicide in a lot of these live MTTs and I feel like the perceived/actual softness of these types of tournaments really stunts my game a lot. I sometimes don't know how I can really play creatively and I feel like I end up just being a nit waiting for big hands. I guess basic TAG works but sometimes I wonder where my edge is coming from, if that makes sense to anyone?
our edge comes from bet sizing and thin value betting imo.
getting them to call bets that we never would ourselves is where our edge comes from.
1) you would be absolutely SHOCKED how often this backfires. i got put to a test for my whole stack in the 2011 WSOP Main Event right before a standard end-of-level break and im certain it was because of the “break time” meta going on.
May 30, 2012
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bennymacca said:
our edge comes from bet sizing and thin value betting imo.
getting them to call bets that we never would ourselves is where our edge comes from.
that and making value bets that they wouldn't, and folding in spots where others would lose chips
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