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October 21, 2012
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I'd just been moved to the table and I thought villain's 3bet was pretty strong so I called to set mine. When he checks behind on this flop, it feels like a set of AA or maybe QQ-KK.
I have no idea why I didnt bet the turn. I screwed up there.
Even worse, I think the river is either a check call or bet fold. I decided to pull a sick merge, combining the two, and bet calling like an idiot.
Dont be that guy.
November 4, 2013
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Yes, don't be that guy.
Betting turn is an absolute must on that draw heavy of a board. I think we are almost hoping he ships it in on that turn card, because it's likely he would have bet any flush draw on the flop. I'm not saying I love it when he ships, but that I'm probably never folding turn.
River is for sure just a check call.
I also really don't like his bet sizing pre. It's too small for that hand vs a UTG raise. He's basically begging you to call with a hand that hates every flop it doesn't smash.
Don't fret though, in game I'm doing the same thing you did sometimes, and then writing angry notes about playing like a dumbass when I do my review.
October 21, 2012
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Def should have bet turn. On the river, I think I prefer bet folding to check calling just to charge those hands that it looks like he is trying to showdown. His river raise is never a bluff. I was kinda of surprised to see less than a flush actually.
January 12, 2014
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It's so hard to think he has a flush here, watching the hand it feels like 97, 87, A7, 86, 96, A6 when he raises the river. I mean its a good spot to 3-bet light, because it reduces your options to flatting OOP, or 4-bet shoving, both of which suck with most of our opening range. If he 3-bet any suited club hands he will surely bet the flop because it's hard for you to continue with most of your flatting range, but if he did get tricky and check, he would be betting turn for value once you check to him..
On the river your bet looks like you have Ax and are going for value against his KK/QQ/JJ/Ax-, and since it's pretty unlikely you have a 7 or a flush, he can feel pretty good about raise/folding any of these hands (97, 87, A7, 86, 96, A6), you beat 50% of these, with way better pot odds.
Really might depend on the player though, what stake was this tournament, and was this guy a good reg/random/etc?
And I think everyone is on board with betting turn 🙂
November 4, 2013
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I might be half crazy, but I'm raising that river as a bluff(playing the villain's range). Everything gets there. I'm just never clicking it back. I'm going to 2.7x your bet on the river.
I actually think that stakes are probably quite relevant here.
I don't really mind being more on the bet fold side here with your hand though. It's probably better than check calling, because if I block bet/fold I can control my cost. I know I don't block bet nearly as much as I should be.
June 1, 2012
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I probaly would just 4bet shove this pre.
TPE Pro
December 31, 2013
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yeah was wondering why i didnt see anyone offering a preflop 4bet. your stack size is pretty damn close that youll be leaking pretty bad tEV-wise by just calling OOP pre, esp as a pure set mine with ~30bb. would be interested to see other pros' opinions on this, as its more my intuition than based on actual #science
as played, agree that the turn is a mandatory lead. i think river is best as a bet-fold but heavily opponent dependent. wouldnt want to be bet-folding vs an opponent i know can do it to put me in a tricky situation; would much prefer it vs a stationy player.
October 21, 2012
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Yeah that is a good question?
I'd just moved to the table. Personally, I wouldn't be 3-betting an unknown UTG 30bb raiser with less than TT+, AK. I like a 4-bet on this guy in the future knowing he dry 3-bets into strength with 77.
That's the problem with US sites and could be where I am going wrong. “Unknown” now means likely an overly aggressive former Stars or Tilt pro with a new name instead of passive til proven aggro like it used to. A dude I met in NJ refers to these guys as “Hidden Bosses.”
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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OneTime1Time said:
I might be half crazy, but I'm raising that river as a bluff(playing the villain's range). Everything gets there. I'm just never clicking it back. I'm going to 2.7x your bet on the river.
I actually think that stakes are probably quite relevant here.
I don't really mind being more on the bet fold side here with your hand though. It's probably better than check calling, because if I block bet/fold I can control my cost. I know I don't block bet nearly as much as I should be.
It's not a good river to bluffraise in villain's spot because hero's value range is narrow on river, so he's only really betting river with sets or better for value, or hands like KQ as a bluff. Hero can't really valuebet 2pair. Add to that the fact that the villain's range on the river contains a very, very small number of 7x hands (how many 7x hands does he 3bet pre, check flop, and check turn with? A7? 87? There are very few combos of those suited 7x hands remaining with so many blockers on the board) and no flushes or QJ hands since he would bet those on flop or turn. The river raise reps nothing, and I would only expect hero to fold his bluffs on the river. Hero isn't folding a set, straight or flush very often. I think a river raise in villain's spot would be bad. You can't raise just because 'everything gets there', because you have to think about what percentage of the guy's range you actually fold out.
In terms of hero's play in the hand, I think 4bet pre is better than flat, but I don't hate the flat as a variance-minimiser or exploitative play. I do hate it as a pure setmine though, because if you're going to fold every time you don't hit a set you're wasting a strong hand, and you also don't have anywhere near the implied odds to setmine. So, I just make it 37k and reluctantly call off pre.
I think everyone has already said 'bet turn', so bet turn, but river is close. I don't think its a check/call, since villain is going to check back a ton of hands – when he checks back flop and turn, he has some showdown value, so he's not going to bluff much. I think it's close between a bet/call and a bet/fold. Depends on the villain type. Vs someone aggressive or fishy I might bet/call more often, vs someone passive or more of a reg I just fold, since I don't think a reg would pick this spot to bluff very often. It seems totally unnecessary. I think your line is okay, but probably 4bet pre and definitely, definitely bet turn.
October 21, 2012
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Should I be 4-bet getting this in as a standard? This is probably where I am going wrong in a lot of spots.
What do you do with 99, AJs, and AQo?
What range would you put an unknown on when he 3-bets my UTG raise in the very first hand he ever sees me open?
TPE Pro
June 14, 2012
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loxxii said:
Should I be 4-bet getting this in as a standard? This is probably where I am going wrong in a lot of spots.
What do you do with 99, AJs, and AQo?
What range would you put an unknown on when he 3-bets my UTG raise in the very first hand he ever sees me open?
This is a spot I have trouble with too. There's a lot of button clicking nowadays (aggression for its own sake) and that makes spots like this even trickier.
Given that he's a random, I might just fold 99/AJs to this 3bet. It looks awfully strong against a utg open, and playing OOP sucks. AQo I cringe get it in. (Against most regs I don't think I fold any of the above though.)
I assume this is the WPN 12.5k? 135k at 1700/3500 is an amazing stack in that tournament, and I can see why it feels thin to 4bet jam here. (That said, getting it in in spots like this is how stacks are built.) How many players are left?
As for postflop…when he 3bets pre and checks behind on that flop, I think he has JJ-KK a lot, and I'm considering betting turn and jamming river on a lot of runouts to try to fold those out, especially if we're close to the final table (I assume we are since it's WPN). He's just going to assume he's beat and fold.
Once we turn the 10, a bet is mandatory, probably in the half-pot neighborhood (making the pot around 80k if he calls). Then we get to the river with 70k left and 80k in the middle. I probably lead for a little over 25k and fold to a jam, which seems exploitable but people just don't have the balls to bluff shove here.
I can see why you went for the checkraise on the turn though…if he has what he's representing (pairs below an ace, or a weak ace he 3bet bluffed with pre, then pot controlled on the flop), he's not going to want to give you a free card. I would probably never do it, but it does make sense.
Finally, one big lesson to be learned from his hand, in villain's shoes, is that you can put people in all kinds of tough spots at this stack size with a large portion (if not the majority) of their opening range. So thanks for giving me something to focus on as I start my session. 
September 5, 2013
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just assign villain a 3b range, a callrange vs shove and a 5b shove range and calculate your EV (sometimes with ICM influence). I don't really like to 4b/c here because you are playing vs a random who could interpret our range stronger than we have and could fold the bottom end of his callrange
In this particular case I think it's a easy jam. Hero is opening UTG with 2 shorties and a couple of bigstacks behind so opening range should be a little stronger. Villains perceived 3b range should therefore be stronger too, because villain can't really 3b/f vs the 40k stacks. But with this stacksizes (3 reshoves stacksizes with alot of money in the pot) and a strong perceived range I expect villain to flat AA/KK. So if we assing a 3b range we should take into consideration that his 3b range exists out of hands that have equity vs the shorties.
So let’s say villain has a 3b range of 110 combo’s. ( I included KK+)
(AA-TT, AQs+, ATo+, KJo+)
Has a 3b callrange of 62 combo’s TT+, AQs+, AQo+
And a bluffrange of 48 combo’s you win 48/110 =44% of the time 40400 chips =+18k
And 56% of the time you have 48% of equity vs his range. = 0.56*(0.48*106274+0.52*-106274) = -2.4k
So by shoving you gain 18k-2.4k=15.6k
I don't fully agree with this 3b range and I even included AA and KK. But I think it's clear it's plus ev
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