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im bad at late stages of mtt help
danrose29
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May 1, 2013 - 3:20 pm
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Hi Guys i play a lot of low buy in mtts on stars while i often build big stacks early in the tournament when i run deep i often end up with short stack, its a real pain i know i play too nitty and tight but i need to find some ways to accumulate chips late on any advice welcome, ps its like a vicious circle i get low then i dont have chips to make moves and i look im envy at big stacks and im just not sure how to get big stack, or average stack. I recently placed 3rd in big 16.50 for 2.55k but i just ran super hot in late stages i need help in general late stage play ty

Dan

Plowsy
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May 2, 2013 - 5:33 am
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Hi Dan
I’m a amateur player with the same problem, the thing with me is I build a great stack in the early levels normally top 10 but when the money kicks in and it gets serious I tend to nitt up just trying to climb the ladder, for me this is because I need the money the players I’m playing against don’t need it so can just keep piling on the aggression.but after watching bigdogpckt5s I changed my game in the later stages and just stuck to what I was doing early on and I picked up 4th in the big 33 since that I still build the stacks but I often bust in big pots before the bubble which I’m not fussed about rather make a top 4 than nitt to shitty 34th or something which is what I used to get all the time. So my advice is just do what you do early on and don’t be afraid of busting

Plowsy

danrose29
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May 2, 2013 - 10:09 am
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congrats on 4th in big33 ty for your comments, i agree with you better to go down fighting than fade away.

i noticed from the great training videos thaT THE TOP PLAYERS RAMP IT UP in late stages and play much more aggro i gotta start doing that too ty gl

markconkle
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May 2, 2013 - 8:22 pm
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Best advice I can give is don't get shortstacked.  If you do, just play optimal shove-or-fold.

Shysti
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May 2, 2013 - 10:34 pm
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you have to look for spots late in the game where people are raising light (for example) in mid to late position and you 3 bet them, or if someone is trying to steal your blinds you come over the top, unless of course they too are nits. But little moves like this will help you keep a decent size stack.

 

Also, look for other players who are nitting up like you do that so happen to be in the blinds when you are in late position where you can steal their blinds often to keep the stack around the 27-33 bb area.

"Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning." - Einstein

Sprangle
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May 3, 2013 - 2:32 am
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Once you do away with trying to climb the ladder and play to win, your ROI will go up significantly. If you “need the money” then you are probably playing buy-ins above your bankroll. You may want to move down so you can agg away without grinding for an extra 1/2 buy-in. All the money is at the top and a first, second or third will pay for the 8 times when you blast out of the tournament trying to build a monster stack.

danrose29
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May 3, 2013 - 4:13 am
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thankyou for great advicde guys, yesterday i final tabled a small stakes tournament with 1000 runners and i built huge stack late on and instead of nitting up i looked for spots to steal chips i even 3 bet j4off in sb vs button and won pot, i must have stolen 7 or 8 pots with garbage holdings so it does work il keep doing it hopefully and try not to become short stack again.

danrose29
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May 3, 2013 - 4:16 am
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unfortunately i lost most of my chips late on with 10 players left button opened and aggro player shoved 21bbs sb i had aq s in bb and i call and lose to 44 i guess its correct call though isnt it with 30bbs late on 10 left sb shove on button?

packallama
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May 3, 2013 - 11:34 am
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Yeah seems like a standard spot to 4b shove AQs BB vs SB vs BU.

danrose29
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May 3, 2013 - 6:00 pm
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i know im too tight but it seemed borderline to me as i am calling off most of my chips when i am ranked in top 3 or 4 in c hips overall, if i lose hand which maybe flip i lose most of my stack and that maybe why i only came 7th but i guess if i take flip and win hand i have big stack and chance to win tournament intertesting i instincively called though seemed right til i lost lol then i felt i shoulda folded and kept 30-34bb stack

CCuster 911
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May 4, 2013 - 6:01 pm
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Playing in the deep stages of MTTs is something that a lot of players struggle with, especially those playing lower stakes.  A lot of players tend to get too nitty at these stages, for differnt reasons(sometimes people fall victim to both).  The main two I find are; Scared to lose a significant portion of their stack, or afraid the smaller stacks will shove if they open light.

 

In regards to the first of being afraid to lose some of your chips, this usually stems from people who dont put ina  lot of volume.  When they actually get deep in a alrge field tourney they realize this doesnt happen a lot, and start to play as 'scared money'.  To overcome this, besides increasing volume, you have to actively pressure yourself to make the best choices. Realize that you may be afraid to go bust this close to the major money, and overcome that by realizing your chance of getting to the major money INCREASES if you open up a little more.  Look for spots to steal, pay attention to who folds their blinds and who doesnt, you see somone opening a lot?  if you have played a lot of hands recently 3 bet them, put pressure on them, a lot of times they just want to take it down pre or with a small cbet post.  It also helps if you have noticed this person fols to 3 bets.

 

In regards to the second, a simple understanding of the math would help.  Heres a generic example.  lets say it folds to you in the HJ. There are 4 people behind all standard tags with 15 BBs, you dont expect anybody to flat, so its either shove or fold.  Lets say their shvoe range is as follows: 22+ ATo+ AJs+ KQ. This is 12.2% of hands.  So the chance they fold is 87.8.  So the chance they all fold is .878^4 or 59.4%.  so almost 60% of the time they all just fold, and what do you pick up? Well assuming its a full 9 handed table and antes summ to 1 BB, we are looking at 2.5 BBs(1 BB + antes+ SB).  So if we raise less than 2.5BB we are making chips EASILY…and heres the kicker, WE STILL WIN CHIPS IF WE FOLD TO 100% OF THEIR SHOVES.  Which means we can open ATC to 2.2 BBs here and fold 100% of the time to shoves(even folding aces in this hypothetical) and STILL TURN A PROFIT.  Obviously if you are raising ATC 100% of the time in this spot, people will start to shove lighter, meaning its no longer profitable, and there is also the problem with people calling, but you can still show the math that even if you give up 100% of the time post flop(even if you flop the nuts), you can still turn a profit in a lot of scenarios.

 

Now I am not going to go into more depth in regards to what you can get away with, jsut think about that spot in aprticualr and realize just how little people actually have hands they are willing to commit for their tournament life.

 

One of the biggest differences between Great late game players and mediocre ones, is the willingness to gamble.  the great players know they will be back, so they may 4 bet shove JTs in some spots, they are not afraid of busting this one, they will take every +EV spot they can.  Mediocre late game players will steal a lot but will often fold to the slightest sign of resistence.  This is something people get better at with experience and volume, but it also takes a certain level of concious effort to strive to notice and captialize on spots without fear.

For Coaching - ccuster911@gmail.com - HH Reviews/Leak Finder(HEM or PT)/Concept Discussion

danrose29
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May 5, 2013 - 6:48 am
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Thankyou Custer i think that it s a great post, recently i have been running deeper than normal and doing a little better at final tables because im trying to make the correct decision instead of folding in marginal spots but i have to do it all the time so if i do make a big ft i can adjust to the play and give myself a chance to run deep. In big 16.50 ft we were 6 left or 7 and i had 88 in late pos with 21 bbs utg raiser has been active and has more chips he opened and i three bet shoved 88 this time he had hand and called with aq but i won pot and went from smallish stack to good stack and as result ended up finishing third, a while back id fold 88 to utg raise in that spot because i didnt want to risk it vs utg raise.

I have found in past when i have done well in tournaments its been when i gambled late on. I was playing small buy in rebuy and i have 30bbs with 99 late position i raise button shoves 23bbs he has NOT been active and a little nitty but i decided to call and won flip and went to ft with big stack, so i understand what you are saying better to gamble for big stack and have chance to win it.

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