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Is there a better line to take with my stack size
Im-on-tilt
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October 20, 2018 - 11:53 pm
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Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) – 300/600 NL – Holdem – 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

graval (MP+2): 16.18 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
RosaParks (CO): 8.33 BB
POFC (BTN): 56.63 BB (VPIP: 18.75, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 16)
UASKED4IT (SB): 52.41 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 100.00, Hands: 7)
Im-On-Tilt (BB): 31.15 BB
MrBurns22 (UTG): 27.19 BB (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 11)
Dunkan.X (UTG+1): 17.1 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
al_bueno (MP): 25.09 BB (VPIP: 20.18, PFR: 12.68, 3Bet Preflop: 2.53, Hands: 219)
bentlyboy (MP+1): 30.73 BB (VPIP: 18.18, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)

9 players post ante of 0.13 BB, UASKED4IT posts SB 0.5 BB, Im-On-Tilt posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.62 BB) Im-On-Tilt has Aheart Kheart

fold, fold, al_bueno raises to 2.15 BB, bentlyboy calls 2.15 BB, fold, RosaParks calls 2.15 BB, fold, fold, Im-On-Tilt raises to 31.02 BB and is all-in, al_bueno calls 22.82 BB and is all-in, fold, RosaParks calls 6.06 BB and is all-in

Flop: (61.91 BB, 3 players) Jclub Kspade 9spade

Turn: (61.91 BB, 3 players) Theart

River: (61.91 BB, 3 players) Jdiamond

RosaParks shows Qspade Tdiamond (Straight, King High)

Main Pot [28.4 BB]: (Pre 20%, Flop 91%, Turn 48%)

Im-On-Tilt shows Aheart Kheart (Two Pair, Kings and Jacks)

Main Pot [28.4 BB]: (Pre 61%, Flop 2%, Turn 5%)
Side Pot#1 [33.52 BB]: (Pre 78%, Flop 79%, Turn 5%)

al_bueno shows Qdiamond Kdiamond (Straight, King High)

Main Pot [28.4 BB]: (Pre 19%, Flop 7%, Turn 48%)
Side Pot#1 [33.52 BB]: (Pre 22%, Flop 21%, Turn 95%)

RosaParks wins 14.2 BB
al_bueno wins 47.71 BB

 

Okay so results not withstanding, I’m not sure of another way to play this hand from the bb, I’m only concerned about the original raiser, KK or AA has us in rough shape, anything else I have plenty of equity.  I don’t think at these stakes I only get called by better hands.  I’m not going to 3bet and fold to a jam so why not just pile it in there.  If they all fold that is a fine result which I think will happen most of the time.  Is there a better line to take in a spot like this with 30ish bb?

Im-on-tilt
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October 21, 2018 - 12:03 am
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To add to this, what type of hands would you do this with as a bluff? One min raise, two callers seems like a good situation from the BB to jam a lot of hands given the stack sizes of those involved. That seems like a high variance play.  Maybe hands like suited connectors, weak A’s would be good hands to make this play with?  

rppoker
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October 21, 2018 - 3:27 am
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So let’s start with your first decision pre flop. Al Bueno min raised from middle position and he doesn’t seem like his VPIP and PFR numbers have been out of line. So he probably has something but it is too soon to know just how strong he is. That said, your suited AK should be ahead of his range. Rosa Parks just flats with only 8.33 BB to start the hand, which seems strange. Rosa should be folding or jamming. So the question is, is this a good player getting tricky with a monster or is it a bad player who doesn’t understand shoving charts. I think this is a low stakes tourney so I’d lean toward flatting being a terrible decision on Rosa’s part, but you are in a better position to know that from game flow. So I think AK is probably well ahead of Rosa’s range. So now your decision is how much to raise. A squeeze play is clearly warranted with AK after a raise and a flat. But is your 31 BB jam the best line, or are you better off just raising 6.5-7 BB? I think a 6.5-7 BB 3 bet looks much stronger than a 31 BB jam. Rosa seems priced in to get it all in either way at this point, but which bet sizing is most ideal against Al Bueno? I lean toward a raise rather than a jam, but I suppose a case can be made for the jam since you haven’t actually made a hand yet with ace king.

As it happens, given what al Bueno had and given what the flop turned out to be I think it was all going in the middle at some point whether it is pre flop or post flop. Although a good opponent might be able to fold KQ suited to your 31 BB jam, I suspect if the stakes are low then Al Bueno is calling as he did. If you only 3 bet 6.5-7 BB and got the call from Al Bueno it’s all going in when you flop top pair, top kicker and he flops top pair, second best kicker plus the gutshot. Again, maybe a good player can get away from his hand, but my suspicion is he sees this flop and wants to get it in. If you raise to 6.5-7 BB and then Al Bueno had four bet jammed you are behind AA and KK, you’re ahead of AQ suited, and you are flipping against any other pair. Would he four-bet jam with a range wider than this? I can’t say without knowing game flow. My guess is that with what you put in on your original three bet and the strength of your hand you would be calling a four bet jam.

I wouldn’t be too results oriented here. You got it in good against both players and they both got there with Rosa flopping the nuts and Al Bueno coming from behind to hit the gunshot on the turn.

They got lucky, you got unlucky. That’s poker. As I said, I think an argument can be made for three-bet raising rather than jamming pre flop, but I’m not sure that would have kept you from losing almost all your chips (you have Al Bueno slightly covered) on a later street given the run out of cards. If you had just three bet normal pre flop, you would be way behind Rosa on the main pot after the flop, but you would have been ahead of Al Bueno but I think the side pot would have become more significant anyway and then he would have sucked out on you on the turn.

rppoker
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October 21, 2018 - 3:35 am
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I just noticed that bentlyboy had also flatted al bueno’s original min raise so maybe my suggested 6.5-7 BB re-raise can be increased a bit since there are now two flatters to al bueno’s min raise, but I think you can still take that line as opposed to a 31 bb jam if you want to consider an alternative line to take.

Im-on-tilt
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October 21, 2018 - 1:03 pm
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Nice breakdown Rppoker! I totally agree post flop all the chips are getting in regrardless although with this board texture I’m not thilled. I never try to be results oriented, i just try to make the proper decision. Although I find this hand interesting because this situation happens often enough where there is a min raise and multiple calls and you are sitting there near the top of your range in the blinds with a akward stack size to consider 3bet folding to a jam from Al Bueno. Although against certain villians folding to a 4bet jam would be warranted, calling is not an option.  I guess stack preservation needs to be considered, there is a way for me not to go broke in these spots sometimes or in this case total crippled.  Jamming seems to be the high variance route if I get called especially by more than one person. 

Foucault

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October 21, 2018 - 5:20 pm
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Getting it in is clearly correct here, there’s nothing close about it. I don’t mean to scold you for asking, I just want to make clear how secondary the idea of stack preservation or reducing variance is. It’s a consideration when the play is otherwise close, not when one option is so much better than any other. You can’t approach spots like this by starting from “How can I avoid losing a big pot?” You’ve got to be able to estimate the EV of your various options, and once you do that, you should mostly just choose the highest EV option and deal with the results. It’s poker, tournament poker, there’s going to be variance. Trying to hide from that is going to cost you a lot of money. I encourage you to watch my Getting Off on the Right Foot series, where I explain in much more detail the EV-oriented approach and why it’s so important. Good luck!

 

(Oh and this isn’t a spot to be thinking in terms of bluffs vs value bets, either. When you’re going all in before the river, and especially when you’re very likely to be called, as you are here, then you should have a linear range, not a polar one. That is, you just shove your best hands, you don’t try to have some value bets and some bluffs. Even though it’s not exactly a bluff, hands like AK will benefit a great deal from any folds your opponents choose to make. I haven’t looked closely at this spot but you could probably shove quite wide here, probably hands like ATs and AJo, maybe even stuff like JTs. If you can trap a lot of dead money in the pot, you don’t need to be a favorite when called, you just need to have a lot of equity, as those hands will.)

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