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KK 1st hand in sunday kickoff
hapetimes
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March 12, 2012 - 4:51 pm
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Poker Stars $100+$9 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t50/t100 Blinds + t10 – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

YogAce (MP2): BB = 58.3, t5832
Hero (CO): BB = 50.0, t5000
Skytten 22 (BTN): BB = 104.1, t10411
Kotyhka (SB): BB = 69.2, t6917
lulu.pk70 (BB): BB = 45.8, t4578
aperi321 (UTG): BB = 30.5, t3052
dimokTS (UTG+1): BB = 70.9, t7094
adaptado (UTG+2): BB = 97.5, t9746
MASTERHUF (MP1): BB = 58.4, t5840

Pre Flop: (t240) Hero is CO with K of hearts K of spades
3 folds, MASTERHUF raises to t300, YogAce calls t300, Hero raises to t988, 3 folds, MASTERHUF calls t688, 1 fold

Flop: (t2516) 8 of spades 2 of clubs A of clubs (2 players)
MASTERHUF checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t2516) T of diamonds (2 players)
MASTERHUF bets t1400, Hero folds

Ok i so late rego'd by something like 1 hour, and this is literally my 1st hand

 

Just wondering about a C-bet here and optimal Cbet % vs an unknown

I feel like im never making him fold a better hand and he's unlikely to call with a worse hand (smaller pairs) vs an unknown 3bettor when he's OOP

 

BUT when i check behind it's going to cost me a lot to call down his bluffs/weaker hands..

SJOHN11
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March 12, 2012 - 5:06 pm
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I would make my 3 bet a little bigger pre and i am always c betting the flop.  Obv a horrible flop for u, but you have to rep the A, if u get a call and he checks the turn, check behind and revaluate the river. He may have a pair like 99s or TT here and prob wont fold to one bet, so you may get to showdown if you cbet the flop and turn and river go check check.

bennymacca
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March 12, 2012 - 5:34 pm
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i dont mind your 3bet sizing (3.3x seems fine), but i agree, i would be cbetting 1100 on this flop and then trying to get to showdown.

FkCoolers
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March 12, 2012 - 6:30 pm
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That raise needs to be bigger pre-flop. You're giving a lot of implied odds for suited connectors to slice you.

badabing78
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March 12, 2012 - 6:35 pm
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i like the 3bsize, but i would  cbet this flop 100%
you are right, you wont make him fold a better hand but theres a high possibility that he will fold any non A hand or help you to get to a cheap showdown like sjohn has mentioned.

emufart
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March 12, 2012 - 9:24 pm
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There's no doubt that c-betting this flop with KK will be profitable, it will be profitable with any two cards vs most players. But if your willing to commit those chips to the pot, surely it has to be more profitable to check behind the flop with the intention of calling a turn bet. The same amount of money goes in the pot (,more or less), except now there are so many more hands in his range that we are ahead of, maybe he's taking a stab with a small pair thinking it's good, or semi-bluffing with QJ.
Who know's what he's got, his range is obviously really wide, and I think that's the reason alot of players don't like the line I'm suggesting, they hate to have to “play the guessing game”, but the important thing about this line is that by checking back the flop we give him the opportunity to bluff, while controlling the size of the pot if we're beat.
I think you played this hand fine up until your fold on the turn Hapetimes. I would call here with the intention of making a soul read on the river based on what I think he's capable of, timing, bet sizing, etc.

DannyN13

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March 12, 2012 - 11:18 pm
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100% agree to emufart. I would not cbet to 3.3x here though do you always make your 3bets that big? i think 2.5-3x here is fine and never anymore than that. Antes are in play here even though they are small. We are not trying to make him fold pre. If you don't like playing the guessing game or aren't on that level, then I like cbet to 1/3 pot and reevaluate while pot controlling.

SJOHN11
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March 13, 2012 - 6:46 am
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I dnt like checking back the flop – firstly at least by c betting u have a chance of winning the hand there and then, and i think u gather more information from c betting and getting called than checking the flop and calling a turn lead – and if u have to play the guessing game on the river i prefer c betting flop and checking back turn approach

hapetimes
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March 13, 2012 - 8:45 am
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DannyN13 said:

100% agree to emufart. I would not cbet to 3.3x here though do you always make your 3bets that big? i think 2.5-3x here is fine and never anymore than that. Antes are in play here even though they are small. We are not trying to make him fold pre.

No i dont usually 3bet this much (i'm usually between 2.2 to 2.5 when in position) but there's another player in the pot who has called the initial raise, hence the increased size

swhitelex
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March 13, 2012 - 8:47 am
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with you getting the first hand, I would assume you have no reads on anyone at your table. I would prefer not the 3bet, I would have called, cbet the turn. There were two clubs out and an A that hit the flop. Not the greatest flop for a KK. The cbet would give you information of where your K and you K be on the turn. I would expect that Villian's line with the “check” would be a TT+, Ax+ or meh possibly a flush draw. I like Cbet sizing to be 1/3 but I have been off the mark saying it is too small.

DannyN13

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March 13, 2012 - 11:49 am
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sorry hapetimes missed the flatter 🙁 your sizing is fine.

SJohn11 you are approaching this hand the wrong way. Think about it. If you have the “chance of winning the hand there and then”, he doesn't have an ace those times and we are losing a ton of value. By checking back the flop we are getting value from less than an ace all of which we have beat, and we are pot controlling and reevaluating the river bet/check to know where we are in the hand. If you cbet here and he flats, you are giving him the opptunity to outplay you on the river when you dont double barrel the turn making it a complete guess. Now if we were 3 ways in this hand I would cbet 1/4-1/3 pot 100% of the time (if the other flatter called 3bet pre). That is when you want to find out where you are on the flop and narrow down ranges. Always be thinking outside the box and ways to play hands and extract value rather than just standard cbetting and taking it down right away. Ranging opponents and extracting value is very key in bigger buyin levels.

SJOHN11
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March 13, 2012 - 1:30 pm
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I take your points Danny and understand what your saying but i would  still find it hard to stop myself leading the flop and giving the initiative to the villian ! Im struggling to understand what i would do if the flop goes check check and he leads the turn considering my stack size. Perhaps i am looking at it the wrong way [i dont play these buy ins] and may well be losing value in some hands, i will certainly take your points on board in the future, thx for the feedback

Tiny_Molester
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March 14, 2012 - 12:16 am
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Making a hand easier to play doesn't make it optimal. On this flop you never Bluff off better and you rarely get called by worse, check back and play poker.

bennymacca
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March 14, 2012 - 12:24 am
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i think there are 3  scenarios here

1. cbet

2. check back to give up on turn

3. we check back to call any villain turn bet, then eval river. 

 

i am not sure i like 2, but as described by people above, 3 is in effect the same as 1 with the amount of chips it is going to cost, and we we get more information as there is an extra card to come. we also potentially get to showdown easier as unless villain has a big ace, they might not go for value on the river, and may elect to c/c, which means we can check it back and get to showdown. 

 

the more i think about it, the more checking back works well here. 

 

BUT

 

i think if we are checking back KK here, we definitely have to be the type of player that checks back our ace type hands as well for balance. if we would cbet 100% of the time with our aces, then i think we have to bet KK here too

JLUDEOBV
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March 14, 2012 - 2:03 am
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Tiny_Molester said:

Making a hand easier to play doesn't make it optimal. On this flop you never Bluff off better and you rarely get called by worse, check back and play poker.

 

Yes. +1

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