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April 6, 2013
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Weak player who opens is playing 34/28, running well but not playing that great. Just doing some passive stuff preflop and postflop and then also four bet bluffed in a dumb spot (got shoved on and folded).
Player who calls in the CO is on tilt. I can't remember why but he's been playing probably 66% of hands over the past 12 and it hasn't been going well. I think he got sucked out on and decided to compound it.
I decided to raise/fold the flop v the initial raiser and raise/fistpump call v the CO. I feel like the initial raiser isn't going to go to war with me here four way without a range I do quite poorly against. On the other hand I feel like I am miles and miles ahead of the CO's range to both call this flop bet and to continue v my flop raise in either way, calling or shoving. So yeah, that's what I did, I can get the BB to fold some stuff too with the raise. I guess the first question is, how horrible is my plan? Second question, what ya'll want to do on this turn? We got about 155k effective on the turn. I think there are like 70ish left here so not final table bubble or anything like that.
Poker Stars $10+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t5000/t10000 Blinds + t1250 – 9 players – View hand 2182190
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
CO: BB = 25.4, t254040
Hero (BTN): BB = 64.6, t646399
SB: BB = 32.7, t327185
BB: BB = 54.7, t547498
UTG: BB = 44.1, t441444
UTG+1: BB = 18.3, t183090
UTG+2: BB = 21.5, t214700
MP1: BB = 38.0, t380258
MP2: BB = 72.2, t722082
Pre Flop: (t26250) Hero is BTN with Q
J
3 folds, MP1 raises to t20000, 1 fold, CO calls t20000, Hero calls t20000, 1 fold, BB calls t10000
Flop: (t96250) Q
4
T (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets t31111, CO calls t31111, Hero raises to t77777, BB folds, MP1 folds, CO calls t46666
Turn: (t282915) K (2 players)
CO checks, Hero
July 6, 2012
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i think this was an ideal squeeze spot preflop. I am 3 betting, or folding this hand pre, most of the time.
I also think you're flop raise was a little small, with so much $ in the pot. You're giving all the draws out there a good price to call.
Prob the one of the worst cards in the deck peels on the turn. This card smashes his flatting range of your flop raise, because we've allowed so many draws to stay in the hand so cheaply.
I like your plan on the flop, but I def think 3 betting pre is best. You narrow original raisers hand range, you normally get a fold from both the blinds, and you get to see a flop in position, hopefully heads up, against a guy you deem to be on tilt.
when in doubt, in position, 3 bet. You save yourself a lot of tougher decisions, alot of the time.
April 6, 2013
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What's your reason for thinking this is an ideal squeeze spot? To me I have one of the nut flopping hands in the nut postflop position with a guy on my right whose ready to blow. I can invest little here, flop very well, and then control the situation as it unfolds infront of me. That was my thinking preflop with this part of my range.
June 11, 2012
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i dont like 3bettintg pre with our hand here.
1.) we do not mind if it gets multiway because it plays very well multiway
2.) we are IP post flop and should have a decent edge
3.) if we squeeze we have to make it pretty big 3.5-4x and this might allow the OR to 4b/shove with a lot of his hands
flop i dont see much merit in raising. to me it looks pretty scarry that OR cbets this multiway. would be nice to have it backed up with stats.
mean if he cbets 100% of the time multiway then a raise here is ok. In general this board hits the callers pretty hard and therefore a Cbet is even stronger. Really suprised he folded. Probably he was not as weak as you decribed him and he made a hero fold?
problem i see with the raise that you overrep your hand pretty hard. for a good player a raise here multiway reps mostly sets and good combo draws against which his Cbet/gii range we are crushed.
if you flat call you can still get CO stack in. Dont see that OR 2barrels here if called by two.
as played on the turn i check back and let villain do the shoving on the river.
cheers
July 6, 2012
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Gareth Chantler said:
What's your reason for thinking this is an ideal squeeze spot? To me I have one of the nut flopping hands in the nut postflop position with a guy on my right whose ready to blow. I can invest little here, flop very well, and then control the situation as it unfolds infront of me. That was my thinking preflop with this part of my range.
I agree that you can flat and invest minimal chips, but I think you invite the blinds in by flatting, open yourself up to be squeezed, and fail to narrow any part of your opponents range.
There's also 6.6 BBs up for grabs preflop since there are antes. Even if you 3.5x the open raise, you are still only investing 6.5 to win 6.6 BBs.
Im not saying 3 betting is the best pre. Just saying if you're going to play the hand, I think it's the best play pre.
Feel like you either win a small pot, or lose a big pot, when you play a hand like QJ this way, bc you are normally dominated, or only a small favorite when you get it in on flops like this. You are also normally lost post flop, even though you're in pos.
Lastly, as played. I think you need a plan for what you're going to do on turn cards, before you raise the flop. Are you going to barrell if an ace comes? A king? a heart? a blank? Or are you just going to try and get to a cheap showdown?
June 11, 2012
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kingten102 said:
.
Feel like you either win a small pot, or lose a big pot, when you play a hand like QJ this way, bc you are normally dominated, or only a small favorite when you get it in on flops like this. You are also normally lost post flop, even though you're in pos.
this statement is seems to be wrong in my opinion
QJs has a very good flopping potential to play for big pots. 2P+, SDs, FDs, combo draws.
additionally it flops a good pair with decent kicker often enough. The later allows to play for small to medium sized pots. Especially in positon we can very well control the size of the pot
i would def 3bet QJo but think QJs is to good to 3bet. QTs,Q9s are different imho too
July 6, 2012
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I understand that QJ flops well, especially in position.
by “playing it this way”, I meant raising the flop on a draw heavy board(bloating the pot), on a board that crushes the CO’s flatting range. AND then not raising enough on the flop, to price out hands that have a lot of equity against ours. IE: any pair, any flush draw, any straight draw, etc.
I would just rather play the pot heads up, if I can in position, with the initiative, with dead money out there, all while narrowing ranges down, instead of going to a flop potentially 4-5 handed with a hand that “flops well”
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December 6, 2012
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kingten102 said:
I understand that QJ flops well, especially in position.
by “playing it this way”, I meant raising the flop on a draw heavy board(bloating the pot), on a board that crushes the CO's flatting range. AND then not raising enough on the flop, to price out hands that have a lot of equity against ours. IE: any pair, any flush draw, any straight draw, etc.
I would just rather play the pot heads up, if I can in position, with the initiative, with dead money out there, all while narrowing ranges down, instead of going to a flop potentially 4-5 handed with a hand that “flops well”
You make a good case for squeezing in this spot, but not for squeezing with exactly this hand. I agree with the others that this is a hand you should be eager to play multiway in position. It's OK to lose a “a lot of the time” postflop because we are getting good odds to see the flop. Position should result in us winning more than our share of pots, which is sufficient.
What I see in your posts is a general lack of comfort with multiway pots, and while they aren't the most critical skill for an MTTer, they do come up a fair bit if you play well-structured live MTTs. I think you'd do well to study/practice/think more about multiway pots. Actually this might be a video idea 🙂
It's important to have the initiative when you're bluffing, but this hand is strong enough that we won't necessarily need to bluff, at least not in a way that involves representing TPTK/overpair. Squeezing may be profitable here, but it's best done with a hand too weak to call, rather than “waste” the calling value of QJs or a small/medium pair (also hands I'd flat here).
As for Gareth's sizing, I think it's appropriate for his plan, which is to raise/fold against the OR and hopefully get it headsup with the tilt monster. The cost of charging a higher price to draws is losing more money to the OR's shoves. I'm guessing he expected the CO to shove rather than call if he continued.
That said, I'm not wild about the plan. I agree with florian that the cbet is pretty strong, so I'm not eager to raise right now. I don't think we can rep strong enough to fold better. I'd rather call here, plan to fold bad turn cards or if the OR barrels again, and bet if checked to.
As played, you should be done with the hand. Check it back, and expect to check down or fold river. I could see calling a small bet if you river trips or a straight, but not a big one.
January 22, 2013
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raising someone that was leading into 3 people from MP with this hand on this flop is pretty bad imo
preflop depends a ton on OR but calling seems almost impossible to be wrong
April 6, 2013
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yeah I dont feel like there is much question preflop tbh
But obviously I played the hand postflop in a pretty ambitious way. For whatever reason in game I didn't read the c-bet as particularly strong. Maybe that's gameflow maybe that's rose-coloured glasses. But while I was cognizant that c-betting this board into this many should be strong I didnt really think OR was going to compensate well for the situation and his size didn't dissuade me from that.
Still think obviously its very ambitious. In any case, not only did I get speculative there, but I shoved the turn. 
July 6, 2012
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great convo gents. I love hearing alternate lines, and why the one I might have chosen, might not have been best with this hand, in this spot.
would love to hear thoughts on what you would do with these hands, in this same spot.
AJ suited
99
K10suited
AJo
April 6, 2013
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I'm getting in TT v MP1 here if I recall the dynamics correctly. 99 might be getting thin for 38bb even given the dynamics of it being a squeeze and me otb. I think I squeeze AJo and call off v CO and fold v MP1. flatting KTs all day.
Not saying those are all the best. That's just the kind of donk I am
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December 6, 2012
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kingten102 said:
great convo gents. I love hearing alternate lines, and why the one I might have chosen, might not have been best with this hand, in this spot.
would love to hear thoughts on what you would do with these hands, in this same spot.
AJ suited
99
K10suited
AJo
Good question. The way I'd think about this is that none of these are hands I'm excited to get it in with preflop, and all of them are good enough to call. That doesn't mean they have to be calls – it's possible that raise-folding will prove more profitable than calling – but as I mentioned before I'd rather raise-fold hands too weak to call.
I'm assuming here that MP1 doesn't flat many 3bets. It sounds like there is more of a chance of CO flatting, so that complicates things a bit. I'm not real optimistic about making him fold pre, but I don't think I need to. Isolating him with any one of these hands is fine, so mostly it comes down to how much we expect the OR to fold to a 3bet.
AJo performs the poorest in a multiway pot, so that's the first one I'd raise. I think KTs might actually come next, because I don't see as many opportunities to dominate someone's kicker by calling as I have with AJs. In fact I'm not real inclined to squeeze the AJs, I think it's one of those medium-strength hands that performs well in a single-raised pot, even a multiway one, but not in a 3-bet pot.
99 is tricky because I don't think I'd fold it to a 4-bet. Raise-getting it in preflop is probably marginally profitable, but I think calling will show a much higher expectation. By putting your money in preflop on a coinflip, you nullify the advantages of position and superior skill. I also don't think as much good comes from isolating CO with a 3b. Postflop, unless you flop a set, he'll probably play close to perfectly, folding only when you're ahead and putting you in some tough spots if he bets both pairs and draws.
April 6, 2013
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Yeah I like flatting KTs, 99, and AJs and squeezing AJo too.
I can clarify one thing though, if I squeeze and MP folds, CO is calling pretty much his entire range unless my sizing is ludicrous. That was definitely true at this time in this particular spot. If we are talking hypotheticals of course its important to consider alternative dynamics.
September 29, 2012
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Preflop: Yeah, I see this as a standard call. This is a good spot for a squeeze. When i play live I would see the spot and note it in my head that it was a good spot. But then after I look at my hand I would over ride the squeeze play as this is also a great spot to call and see a cheaper multi way flop with a hand that can hit big. It comes down to this, do I want to try to win the money in the pot now or try to hit a big hand and stack someone.
Flop: Without reads, I don't typically raise the flop there. Against tighter opponents, I may even find a fold. But ehre we have basically a LAG who we epect to open wide and c-bet almost all the time. And a calling station. So here, I think top pair against two opponents with 30 BBs is a monster.
Turn: Would hate the Kh hitting the turn, but a shove is standard against a calling station.
kingten102 said:
great convo gents. I love hearing alternate lines, and why the one I might have chosen, might not have been best with this hand, in this spot.
would love to hear thoughts on what you would do with these hands, in this same spot.
AJ suited
99
K10suited
AJo
With the hands listed, I would 3 bet AJo, as was already mentioned that is not a hand that plays well in multi-way pots. I may 3 bet AJs since it is in front of the ranges of the players, but it also plays better multi-way than AJo, so this hand can go either way. It would probbably depend on game flow, my image, and other factors. KTs is not a 3 bet for me in most spots, unless there are game flow or other dynamics that may affect the decision. 99 is a borderline hand. It is ahead of the ranges, but can play well multi way. This might be a hand I call and see the flop before deciding what to do.
April 20, 2013
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I like the flat pre. You are still deep enough that you can flop super well and get a stack.
On the flop I like the three bet, but I think you really need something like 110,000 with the intention of calling off (or possibly folding to MP1 based on a read). The board is super drawy, and you have a solid hand. There are really only a few hands that you should be worried about (1010, KQ or AQ), but the Kh on the turn is the exact reason you want this to end on the flop with them folding or with the money going into the center with you ahead.
AP you should check behind on the turn, bink an offsuit A and win with broadway on the river. Easy game.
July 3, 2010
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I like the flat pre with this hand since we're deep and it can't withstand a 4 bet.
On the flop I am tempted to just flat because if raised we either need to fold or we get it in vs. some really strong draws, some better made hands, and really nothing that we dominate.
If a blank peels on the turn we can almost play perfectly in position.
When we raise the flop we're making Tx fold, worse Qx, and we're getting jammed on by all sets and all strong draws and sometimes a hand like AQ and KQ so I am having a hard time agreeing with the flop raise decision.
May 30, 2012
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FkCoolers said:
I like the flat pre with this hand since we're deep and it can't withstand a 4 bet.
On the flop I am tempted to just flat because if raised we either need to fold or we get it in vs. some really strong draws, some better made hands, and really nothing that we dominate.
If a blank peels on the turn we can almost play perfectly in position.
When we raise the flop we're making Tx fold, worse Qx, and we're getting jammed on by all sets and all strong draws and sometimes a hand like AQ and KQ so I am having a hard time agreeing with the flop raise decision.
this seems fine v the stronger play but seems innaccurate given reads on the fish. seems reasonable that we get enough of openers cbetting range to fold if he bets too much.
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