View Plans & Pricing

If you are signed in and are seeing this message, please be sure you have selected a user name in My Profile. The forum requires it.
A A A
Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
sp_TopicIcon
Poker After Dark Sit and Go Blind vs Blind
DuckinDaDeck
Hunting Max EV
Sunday Major
Members
Forum Posts: 284
Member Since:
February 8, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
September 23, 2017 - 1:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

Watching ‘Rumble in the Jungle’ Episode 1 and noticed an interesting play at the 17 minute mark. I know this isn’t an MTT, but I think the strategy at this stage would not diverge much from early game MTT strategy.

Blinds 500/1000 w/ 1000 ante posted by BB. First level, about 10 hands in, all players sitting on >100bb.

Jason Koon has 157k and Ike Haxton has 184k. Folds to SB, Jason Koon makes it 4k with 6diamond4diamond. Ike Haxton defends with Aspade2 heart.

Flop comes Jdiamond8club2club

Jason bets 3k, Ike raises to 10.5k, Jason folds.

Not a very action-packed hand, but I find Ike’s raise very interesting here. I can think of a lot of reasons for and against the play, but I’m really curious to know what his reasons might have been. Any ideas?

ReinaSafia
Guppy
Members
Forum Posts: 1
Member Since:
September 8, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
September 24, 2017 - 7:55 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I’d be interested to see what your reasons for why he may have opted to take this line are. Ill give my two cence anyway, whether or not it will be of benefit is questionable. Also open to critique as im still learning. To me, its quite a risque approach. First of all defending with a hand that doesn’t flop too well post flop especially when you arent getting great odds to call pre is the first issue. Sure, stacks are deep and he’s in position but i just don’t think you’re getting that much value in the long run by defending with hands as such when he makes it so big. Post flop when sb comes in with the lead i think a release is optimal as there arent really any good turn cards for us. Obv sb’s range is most likely wide in this position and ike thinks he can exploit that but i think this isnt the right board to do it on…

DuckinDaDeck
Hunting Max EV
Sunday Major
Members
Forum Posts: 284
Member Since:
February 8, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
September 28, 2017 - 9:48 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

As I see it, raising has some advantages and disadvantages. The biggest disadvantage is that SB probably only calls better hands and draws that have a lot of equity. We may get called by a hand like Tclub7x, but even in this best case scenario, villain has >38% equity. Against Tclub9x we are a slight equity dog, at 49.2%, and against any flush draw that doesn’t include an Ace we are in worse shape. We are taking a hand strong enough to call and essentially turning it into a bluff.

We also need to consider how many chips we are investing with a hand that is probably folding to any further betting. If we call the bet and fold to a turn barrel we’ve lost 3k chips. If we raise and get called, check back the turn, and fold to a river bet, we have lost an additional 7.5k chips (not to mention the times villain 3bets the flop). To justify the additional investment we have to believe that raising is accomplishing a fair amount.

One clear advantage is that we give ourselves a chance to win the pot immediately. Every hand at least has overcards to our pair, and folding out that much equity is a big win. I calculated that, if villain is c-betting any less than 90% (of a 62% opening range), we are probably not getting enough folds to profit by raising as a pure bluff. However, raising with at least some equity against villain’s calling range might still be profitable against a much tighter opening/c-betting range. When we are called we can often check-back the turn and see a free river, allowing us to realize our equity. If we make it to showdown our hand will win unimproved against any missed draws (and I expect a lot of draws to call our flop raise), and we will improve to two pair or trips ~21% of the time, beating many of villain’s made hands.

Even if we believe raising is profitable, that doesn’t mean it is more profitable than calling. There’s a lot more to consider, but my brain hurts already, so I’ll stop here for now.

ReinaSafia said
Defending with a hand that doesn’t flop too well post flop especially when you arent getting great odds to call pre is the first issue… Post flop when sb comes in with the lead i think a release is optimal as there arent really any good turn cards for us.

I think BB wants to defend A2o here, as well as a bunch of weaker hands, even though we can be more conservative against a 4x than a smaller open. We will have position for all future betting rounds, and with such deep stacks and inherently wide ranges, position is a huge advantage.

Although I think MDF (minimum defense frequency) is an overvalued concept in a lot of spots, I think it is very relevant in preflop blind defense. If we don’t defend enough hands to prevent villain from profitably opening any two cards then we are giving a lot of free chips away, and incentivizing them to attack our blinds more often.

SB is risking 3500 to win 2500 (500 of his raise is already in the pot as his blind). His raise is auto-profiting if he wins 3500/(3500+2500) = 58.3% of the time. So we need to be defending at least 41.7% of hands. You could build a 42% range without A2o if you prefer defending hands like Q4s,75s,K7o,T8o and similar, but I think we can profitably go much wider than 42% if we trust in our post-flop abilities. Against a SB 3x I’m defending ~80% of hands at >=100 BB and I think at least 65% can be defended against a 4x.

I think BB should almost never be folding a pair on the flop (especially to this size bet), bottom pair included. A reasonable SB opening range flops a pair or better ~38.6% of the time, so any pair should be doing well against most c-betting ranges. Bottom pair with no draw on a monotone or 3 straight board may be good candidates to fold, but otherwise I think it is usually too weak and exploitable to be folding.

almofadinhas
Playing The Prelims
Members
Forum Posts: 586
Member Since:
June 2, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
September 29, 2017 - 8:57 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Hey DDD!

Probably the only one that can say for sure what he is doing is himself hehe; But I think that kind of flop fits better the pre flop caller, and he is playing range IP, having 5 outs to improve is a plus for sure; His raise gain some equity bluffing hands like pocket pairs, make overcards to fold, probably, on a spot that will be weird to be calling IP big bets ott and river, he also gets lots of cards to bluff later, representing a draw that hits the board.

Not sure tow smile

theginger45

TPE Pro
Members
Forum Posts: 924
Member Since:
August 25, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
October 13, 2017 - 12:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Without wishing to over-interpret the thought process of someone infinitely better than me (Ike), I think this is what was going on.

Ike knows Jason likely has both a raising and a limping range in the SB at >150bb deep. When Jason makes it 4bb, this indicates his raising range is very polarized, as it should be – if he’s limping some and raising others, his raising range should be more poled and his limping range more condensed, hence the big sizing on the raise.

Ike can’t fold Ace-x to a raise here pre – Jason risks 3.5bb to win the 2.5bb that was in the pot preflop, meaning if his raise gets through 58% of the time he auto-profits, and thus Ike has to defend 42% of the time. It’s tough to fill out that frequency if you’re folding Ace-x hands.

My guess is that Ike identified that the flop was one that gave him a fairly substantial range advantage – Jason’s poled raising range doesn’t contain many hands that interact with J-8-x, since he’d be limping a lot of those hands. When Ike has an Ace, he also blocks some of the strongest hands in Jason’s raising range on this board – AA and AJ – and when Jason makes such a small flop bet, Ike knows Jason is likely doing it with his entire range.

Ike has a choice between peeling the flop in a situation where he has very little clarity moving forward, or placing A2o in his raise/fold range on flop – since Jason is unlikely to have much of a 3-betting range on flop with Ike blocking it, Ike knows he gets to take the initiative here on a board that smashes his range much harder than Jason’s. There are many runouts that are really good for Ike’s range and awful for Jason’s, and I imagine Ike is planning on bluffing a lot of them. Ike’s specific hand also has an overcard versus the most likely portion of Jason’s continuing range – strong Jx hands like QJ/KJ, or overpairs like QQ/JJ.

It’s also entirely possible this is just an exploitative play by Ike, since he’s played with Jason a lot, or it could be that Ike has some live reads on Jason. It may also simply be that Ike would only make this play 5-10% of the time, and this happened to be one of those times. Ike is one of the few guys good enough to execute a significantly mixed strategy in spots like this.

DuckinDaDeck
Hunting Max EV
Sunday Major
Members
Forum Posts: 284
Member Since:
February 8, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
October 19, 2017 - 11:11 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

Thanks for the in depth and insightful answer Ginger. I didn’t consider how a polarized range interacts with this board but, after a quick Flopzilla analysis, I couldn’t agree with you more. Although I agree it is very hard to know how a player like Ike thinks about these spots, I find it really interesting to ponder why one of the best players around would make a certain play.

I noticed a couple hands while watching some Poker Masters content, hope nobody minds me making another similar post soon.

Foucault

TPE Pro
Members
Forum Posts: 2067
Member Since:
December 6, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
October 19, 2017 - 2:11 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Good discussion here. I think people aren’t fully grasping how small these bets are relative to the pot, though. Jason bets less than 1/3 pot, and Ike makes a smaller than half-pot raise. When faced with such a tiny bet, you should be raising often, including with some “mergey” hands like this one. I doubt Ike will just consistently check back turn and fold to a river bet if called, but there’s too many possible turn/river scenarios to enumerate them all. Bottom line is he’s got an extremely vulnerable hand in a spot were both players will have very wide ranges. Though he’s probably behind Jason’s range when called, Ike is rarely dominated and occasionally ahead (hands like KQ with backdoor flush draw, Q9/QT, etc.). Focusing primarily on how Ike is doing against the top of Jason’s range (Tx, clubs) is misleading IMO. And he values fold equity a lot, even when ahead.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 2780

Currently Online:
9 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

bennymacca: 2616

Foucault: 2067

folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133

praetor: 1033

theginger45: 924

P-aire 146: 832

Turbulence: 768

The Riceman: 731

duggs: 591

florianm1: 588

Newest Members:

oneout2many

JLPicard

Jackarmi

WSOPstar2B

LuckyEva

jankyjon

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 24

Topics: 12705

Posts: 75003

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1063

Members: 11987

Moderators: 2

Admins: 5

Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos

Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1