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result good, play bad?
Kilavolts
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December 4, 2013 - 10:57 pm
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Merge - $0+$0|<> NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 5,030 (VPIP: 62.22, PFR: 6.98, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 45)
Hero (BB): 6,540
UTG: 3,690 (VPIP: 11.76, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 34)
UTG+1: 3,980 (VPIP: 19.44, PFR: 9.38, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 36)
MP: 7,790 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
CO: 4,232 (VPIP: 57.14, PFR: 42.86, 3Bet Preflop: 60.00, Hands: 7)
BTN: 18,439 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)

7 players post ante of 40, SB posts SB 200, Hero posts BB 400

Pre Flop: (pot: 880) Hero has  Tspade Theart 

fold, fold, [color=red]MP raises to 800[/color], fold, fold, SB calls 600, Hero calls 400

Flop: (2,680, 3 players)  Jspade 8spade 4heart 
[color=red]SB bets 400[/color], Hero calls 400, MP calls 400

Turn: (3,880, 3 players)  Tclub 
[color=red]SB bets 400[/color], [color=red]Hero raises to 1,200[/color], fold, SB calls 800

River: (6,280, 2 players)  Aclub 
[color=red]SB bets 400[/color], [color=red]Hero raises to 1,200[/color], [color=red]SB raises to 2,590 and is all-in[/color], Hero calls 1,390

[spoil]Hero shows  Tspade Theart  (Three of a Kind, Tens) (Pre 72%, Flop 76%, Turn 100%)
SB shows  Aspade 8heart  (Two Pair, Aces and Eights) (Pre 28%, Flop 24%, Turn 0%)
Hero wins 11,460
[/spoil]
WackyJuan
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December 5, 2013 - 1:24 am
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Kilavolts,

I'm not fond of the pre-flop overcall.  This is a great hand to shove your 16bb stack with.  You'll expect to pick up the 5bb pot most of the time, and if called, you've got lots of equity at 50.4% vs a likely MP calling range of about 6% (77+,AJs+,AQo+).  He could even call you much lighter.  Looking at MP's stats, you've only seen 9 hands so his 0% pfr shouldn't be taken into account (which is maybe why you didn't shove?).  The SB's VPIP of 62.2% and pfr of 7% screams fish, so he may call you super light and you'll have him crushed.

As played on the flop, the turn is also a mistake I think.  Your raise on this wet board was only 2bb, which gave the MP 13.7:3 odds to call (almost 4.5:1), and the SB had odds of 13.7:2 (or almost 7:1).  You're offering them too sweet of odds.  Also, if one or more called, there would be at least 15.7bb's in the pot, and you only had 10bb's behind.  I think a shove on the turn would've been in order.  Charge them to draw, or get max value from their 2p or TP hands.

Thanks for the post,

Wacky 

Phoebus
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December 5, 2013 - 8:29 am
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I’d jam pre.

WizardZur
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December 5, 2013 - 10:29 am
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I actually liked the way that you played the hand.  Although I am LAG in certain spots, there are certain spots where I like to underrepresent my hand.  If you shove here, you probably win the pot, but I don't think that results in winning the maximum possible.  I'm not sure the SB is holding anything as he has pretty decent odds to call with a moderate strength hand, but it is the MP position player that concerns me.  If he calls, may be holding an overpair, or more likely it is a race.  He has you covered and I don't really like racing for my tournament life until I have to.  Here, you can see a flop cheaply, and underrepresent your hand by calling.  You have marvelous odds, both expressed and implied to set mine.  Additionally, some flops (e.g. 279) will be good for your hand and you can get more value by calling and getting it in later.  The problem with this line is that it gives your opponents a chance to hit the flop.  However, a call only risks 400 more chips, and I think you can fold a terrible flop (AKQ) and still have chips left.    

 

That flop is actually a very good one for you.  While a Jack could be in either opponent's range, I don't think it is likely the MP player has a jack as his range seems fairly tight.  The SB could have a Jack, but that is unlikely, his range is extremely wide, and there is no reason to put him on Jack specifically.  There are open ended straight draws and flush draws on board; however, since you hold 10spade, that diminishes the number of draws that your opponent can have.  Therefore, I think your opponent's most likely missed the flop.  If you raise on the flop, they will most likely fold, unless they have the spade draw.  But if they do have the spade draw I don't think it is terrible to call the flop, seeing if a spade comes on the turn, and react from there.

 

Once the turn comes, it gives you the third nuts.  It completes the 9-10 draw, but no other draw, and the only other hand that beats you is JJ specifically.  If your opponent has that, then it's a cooler, but you have to assume you have the best hand here.  The only draw I am the least bit concerned about is the spade draw, so I want to charge my opponent for that draw specifically.  If I am reading it correctly, after SB bets the turn there is 4280 on the turn, and if someone has a spade draw they have 7 outs or 14% given that I have the 10spade.  Therefore, raising somewhere around 1500 is optimal.  That would create a 5380 pot, or 1100 more for him to call, charging him for the draw, but making the call borderline.  Your raise is a little on the small side but not terrible.

 

Once the river comes you have to assume you have the best hand and the pot is sufficiently large that you're just trying to get it in.  I'd probably just go all in on the river, but what you did worked too.

 

You were lucky in the sense that your opponent was horrible and you hit a set on the turn.  However, I liked the way that you played it.  smile 

Poking_Fun
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December 5, 2013 - 10:33 am
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Keep it simple and ship it in preflop. You will often enough get called by a lot worse (77+ etc).

Flop – small blind bet is ultra weak on a connected board. I would never believe this is a J, more often here it is a draw or weak hand trying to buy a cheap card especially betting into 2 players. I don't mind the call but I would still consider raising as you're going to hate a shedload of turn cards.

Turn – gin card, probably best to just shove all-in and commit your opponent as he might call now with a draw but if you call and then he check/folds river you lose a ton of value.

WizardZur
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December 5, 2013 - 10:44 am
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My problem with shoving pre is that the guy in MP doesn't seem like the guy that would call with 99 or lower.  Albeit it is a small sample size, but he seems to have two overs here and wouldn't call with a pair lower than 10-10 anyway.  The SB probably has nothing bc he just flatted and has a VPIP of 62%.  He has a wide range to call, but likely would 3 bet a strong holding.  His range here is probably any ace, a low pair, any suited king, and any suited connectors.  Most of this range just folds to an all-in raise.  I strongly believe if Hero goes all-in here, both opponents fold the vast majority of the time.  This would turn his 10-10, a very strong hand, into a bluff, and leave him wondering if he could have gotten more value.  If your stack was just a little bit smaller, like 10BB, I would just have to shove.  But here, even if you call and fold flop you still have 13ish BB.  I would actually be more inclined to ship a much weaker hand as a squeeze than I would to shove with a pair as strong as 10-10. 

Poking_Fun
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December 5, 2013 - 11:12 am
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Wiz, I think you may be underestimating what online guys stack off with in these tournaments. I would expect the initial raiser to call here with 77+, AJ+, KQ etc and the SB who knows what he calls with but probably a little wider given that he has a short stack and may put hero on a “steal”

In live tournaments I would definitely feel that the calling ranges for the two villains is maybe a bit tighter but even there I am shoving. My main reason for shoving is that we can increase our stack by 35% or more even if we do not get called which is a huge increase plus there is also the added advantage that even if we are up against a tighter calling range we are only really crushed by JJ-AA.

If we just call here and not maximise fold equity I think it is a big mistake as we will not often win this pot postflop oop and multiway unless the flop comes down T high or less. Imagine the flop comes J24 for example. Are we then betting and folding to a shove or checking and allowing even more free cards?

WizardZur
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December 5, 2013 - 11:51 am
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Poking_Fun said:

Wiz, I think you may be underestimating what online guys stack off with in these tournaments. I would expect the initial raiser to call here with 77+, AJ+, KQ etc and the SB who knows what he calls with but probably a little wider given that he has a short stack and may put hero on a “steal”

In live tournaments I would definitely feel that the calling ranges for the two villains is maybe a bit tighter but even there I am shoving. My main reason for shoving is that we can increase our stack by 35% or more even if we do not get called which is a huge increase plus there is also the added advantage that even if we are up against a tighter calling range we are only really crushed by JJ-AA.

If we just call here and not maximise fold equity I think it is a big mistake as we will not often win this pot postflop oop and multiway unless the flop comes down T high or less. Imagine the flop comes J24 for example. Are we then betting and folding to a shove or checking and allowing even more free cards?

Shoving is certainly the most common line, but I disagree with the rest.  Let's consider the alternatives….

Shoving: The OP posted the Villians VPIP so we know what they are, MP is 22 and SB is 62.  It doesn't really matter what online or live is in the abstract, because we know what the opponent's holdings are based on HUD data.  MP has 77+, A9+, and any two face cards in his range; Villian has anything really.  But what will they actually call a shove with?  MP seems like he wouldn't call with a worse pair based on his stats and SB, although he has a loose calling range doesn't mean he will call 15BB light.  Ok 77+ is def in their calling range and two overcards, agreed.  If called, you probably have 45% against a caller's range.  So, you don't want to be called, and if you don't want to be called then your hand is a bluff.  It's a bluff where you have some equity even if called, but I really don't want to risk my tournament life if I don't have to.    If my opponents fold, that's a very good result, but does it maximize your EV?  If you add fold equity and real equity, jamming is certainly +EV, but it isn't the most possible +EV.  If I had slightly less, say 10-13BB I would just shove, but I'm at a stack where I don't per se have to shove.  If I wasn't in the BB I would also shove, but by being in the BB I can close the action, and see a cheap flop. 

 

Calling: Here, we are in the BB, so calling will close the action, and will underrepresent my hand.  My fold to steal attempt ratio is close to 0 in this situation so by simply calling my opponents have to believe I could have anything, which makes it more likely that they will call in a dominated spot post-flop.  I also disagree that there are no good flops with this hand.  You have to be able to read board texture.  The J24 that you posted is actually an above average flop for our hand as it is unlikely your opponent has a J specifically.  I would actually rather jam that flop than jam pre as it is unlikely that my opponent has hit the flop and with that information I have even more fold equity than if I were to jam pre.  The only downside is that this gives your opponent a chance to hit a jack with a hand like AJ.  However, if you believe your opponent will call to a pre jam with AJ then that is not a true downside as he would have called anyway.  Calling also gives you a cheap opportunity to set mine on a board like A-10-5 where your opponent has AK or AQ.  There are also flops such as 2-5-9 where I have an overpair.  You're right that there are flops like AKQ, which are just gross for our hand, but on that flop we would just check/fold.  And in fact if that is the flop that would have come, we would be better off just calling pre than jamming.  At least then you got to see the flop cheaply and quite possibly saved your tournament life.  If an opponent will call with two overcards if we jam pre, then isn't it better to call and see a horrible flop (and fold), then simply get eliminated when those overcards come?

 

I agree that the concept of fold equity is a powerful one. However, if you truly believe in fold equity then you should be squeezing here as a pure bluff, rather than turning your good hands into a bluff.  If you are jamming with 1010 but folding 45s in this spot then you are much more exploitable than you may realize.  If you are jamming here as a squeeze with any two then OK, I'm happy with a jam with 1010.  But if you are folding your weak to moderate strength hands here, then I don't agree.  Jamming here is lucractive not bc we have 1010 but bc it is such an effective squeeze spot.

 

If one or two variables were just a little different, if I had 10BB instead of 15, if calling didn't close the action, if I had a slightly weaker pair (which would play worse post flop) then my analysis would be different.  But I'm not as worried about a bad flop as you are, I think cheap information about the flop has a lot of value, I'm playing this hand in a more deceptive manner, which ultimately I think gives me a greater likelihood of doubling up, and some flops actually add fold equity to my hand, not take it away.

 

   

Phoebus
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December 5, 2013 - 6:06 pm
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This is actually a good point Wizard, now that I think about it. There are other possible lines that maximize our EV, the other thing too is that sometimes were gonna hit decent flops where there is all low cards and since we took no lead pre they stack off with a smaller pair.

 

Im gonna experiment with this.

Kilavolts
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December 5, 2013 - 6:50 pm
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Thanks a million guys. There is some serious analysis with mind opening thoughts. Shows me I’m not quite thinking on the level I should be.

theginger45

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December 6, 2013 - 10:05 pm
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This is a 100% mandatory preflop shove. I'm not folding TT here with 16bb to any player in the world. Probably shoving 66+ ATs+ AJo+ KQo KQs+.

 

Just as an example of the math here, there's 2280 in the pot once the raise and the call are in there. We're putting in our 6540 to win that 2280. The pot once we shove will be 6540+2280 = 8820, that's the pot we stand to win.

To work out how often our shove needs to work if we have no equity, we do 6540/8820 = 0.74 = 74% of the time. So if we had a Snickers wrapper and a Joker here, we'd still be profiting from the shove if we could get him to fold three-quarters of the time, assuming the small blind always folds.

If he opens 20% of all hands, that's all pairs, all broadways, A9o+, A7s+ and T9s. If he calls us with top 5% (that's 25% of the hands he opens), that's 99+ AQo+. This is a plausible scenario that involves him folding 75% of the time to our shove, and us making a profit even if we have no cards.

With a hand as strong as TT, we want to get called. We have tons of equity against his range and we can get called by worse pretty often. We're shoving for pure value. Heck, we don't mind if the small blind calls as well and we get a three-way all-in. We are biting their hands off to get TT in here.

Hope that doesn't sound too blunt, but I wanted to give you the tools to work out how profitable this shove is, rather than just saying “shove pre, nh”. Hope it helps!

Kilavolts
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December 6, 2013 - 11:44 pm
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Thank you very much

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