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June 27, 2013
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Need some help on this hand .. It was earlie in the tournament at the AZ state tourney yesturday. The main Villian in the hand is a total newbie.. He has been limping all hands and he even did the “I call and raise” thing. A few times he raise misclicked. And even tried to raise but under raise and argued with the dealer about why he doesn’t get his chips back because it was a mistake on his part.
So hero has 225bb dude to a huge cooler earlie on we’re i stacked a guy set over set. Weeeeeeee!!!!
Villan has 100+bbs ..blinds are 100/200
Hero is UTG+1 with about 45k with KKs due to the table dynamic I choose to raise 600 . Yes 3x but this has been the standard so far and no one seems to be folding a lot so u wanted to build a pot plus drive out most.
Folds to cut off who 3bets to 1450. Folds around to main Villian who i described above ..and he thinks for a bit and flats.
Comes back to hero.. Now what???
The original 3bettor is a compentant player and has been 3betting pretty frequently.. So I honestly didn’t think much about his hand. He’s shown a 3bet pot with K8ss soo.. Yea..
Now the totall newbie. Based on everything that I saw is a level 1 thinker. It doesn’t matter to him that the pot has been 3betted only thing that matter is his hand.. So when he flats there i think it always big connecting cards… I also think he never has ACEs here too. Reason being that even newbies know what to do with AA pre- and being a total newbie I fell he thinks this” I got AA , I don’t wanna get sucked out on, all in or a HUGE bet pre.” He’s not thinking about value but more about not losing with AA.. So I feel there’s no chance main villain has AA.. So with that being said… What who u do here pre?
I would like some input here in this spot before I explain flop.
Thanks
August 21, 2012
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1) I don't hate the 3x open as you stated why above but I hope you were doing that will your entire range. I also think you can make it less and even could argue less is optimal even under the conditions you describe. I don't want to harp on this.
My thoughts :
We have two options here. Flat or 4bet. I think while flatting can work with big hands in certain spots these aren't the optimal conditions to be doing so. We've been able to deduce two key things about some opponents : 1) the 3bettor is capable of doing this light. He has some spazzish tendaices in him. I'm not sure we know his stakc size (this is pretty important info tbh) but he prolly has a 5bet shove in his range that we are gonna be happy to call off. 2) the flattor loves to call so and we already feel like he has a hand he likes enoguh to play against already aggro action before him.
4betting will help build a pot and hopefully isolate us against the fishy player. 4bet all day!
May 30, 2012
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I'm absolutely reraising in this spot. For your reasons, I don't mind the 600, actually like it. I don't think the cowboy limper guy has much. I don't want to play OOP v 2 clowns. I'm making like 4k – 4.2k the C/O has 87s – QQ/AK (hope not AA) the main vill has 22-TT-JT-AJ. Lets see the flop
Again, I RERAISE 4200
July 3, 2010
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4 betting 100% of the time here.
I'm sizing it big for a couple reasons:
– We're OOP
– To get our competent and laggy villain out
– To make the pot bigger vs. the fish
Fish tend to make a decision if they'll play their hand or fold, and they don't often adjust their decision based on the bet sizes we're using.
I think I'd go 5k here.
If the fish flats pre, the pot is big enough to get stacks in on the turn.
June 27, 2013
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Yea …i agree with all above. i don’t like flatting here because the compentant player behind could put me in all kinds of bad spots post.. so I 4 bet to 4100.. From the responses above that might be a tad small. But I felt it would get the job done and gets me HU with cowboy fish ..
The compentant 3 bettor thinks for like 30sec and folds. The SB Villian calls fairly quickly.
Flop is Kc Ah 10h
I honestly feel grossly happy, I flop middle set but in a super wet board that smashes villains range. He hits everything here..
Cowboy villian says “All in”
WTF…??!?
Thoughts?
May 30, 2012
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I say okey dokey and puke it he has AA or QJ but why would he unless he is as horrible as we think. If he has AA, I say nice hand and hope for the miracle case K. You have him covered, so how can you fold this……….
BTW, I always make this mistake of not putting some more chips in OOP. Great points by COOLERS, a true Jedi Master.
July 3, 2010
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Have to call.
Not sure what his exact stack size is but let's just assume 100 bb on the dot.
He had 20k to start the hand and now he has 15.9k behind with appx. 9.9k in the pot.
He could have AJ, AQ, AT, all the heart draws, TT, and almost assuredly never just air.
Basically there's really just no way we can fold, in my opinion.
August 21, 2012
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I'm not thinking much at all. I might think about call/fist pump, call/make loud : “booya” noise/ or my favorite call/pound guy nexts to me drink.
but yah we flopped gin. his range is so wide here what can he really be doing this with? He slow plays QJ almost 100 % of the time. does AA take this odd line? sometimes and i'm willing to be thats what he had given the how this thread is playing out.
he has way more in his hand than QJ, AA. AK, AQ, A10, Ahxh, random hearts, 1010. some KQhh, KQo imo, AJ. just way too many combos to fold here that we beat.
June 27, 2013
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I agree with all the above IF the Villian in question was the compentant 3bettor but since its the cowboy newbie.. I feel he has less of the draws here.. I think he just check calls all draws.. I still feel he never has AA here as I think he does something pre.. Are we ever good here when we get in 100+ bbs??? From my past experience every time I get in lots and lots of bbs post and I don’t have the nuts .. They usually do..
July 3, 2010
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Well, it sounds like maybe you called and saw QJ and could be results oriented. I could be wrong there.
In actuality there's not a single hand in the history of poker that should ever play the way this villain played.
There's also only 2 hands where we're behind and we have still have about 35% equity vs. a flopped straight.
June 27, 2013
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First off I did tank and got the clock called by the 3bettor above.. I decided since I would still have around 100bb still I called it off.. He shows QJ and we brick turn and river..
My last post of me saying that when I’ve gotten in 100+bbs post without the nuts and they usuall have the nuts is not me being results orientented …but after I think about it.. with what hands would any person get in 100bbs post..
So I guess there no getting away from this… Cooler..
July 3, 2010
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I'd tend to think this particular line of betting of getting 100+ bb in the middle hasn't happened too often – i.e. cold calling a 3 bet, then calling a 4 bet, and open jamming for more than pot on the flop.
June 11, 2012
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well, after reading all posts of previous people i want to give my two cents:
1.) i cant understand why you make it 3x pre. You have the second best hand with a villain in the blinds who clearly showed no interest of folding
so why not making it 8x? i played lots of live low limit cash games where people have +100bbs and they are never folding to a 8x
2.) same for 4bet. after he called the 3bet rather quickly you know he is calling every 4bet for sure. so make it bigger again. this also makes SPR for the flop much smaller so that it is much easier to get it in on any flop.
3.) as played we have to call. i think villain calls pre with all PP and and all broadway cards no matter if suited or non suited.
this makes 201preflop combos including card removal effect.
on the flop he has a straight 10.7% of the time and top pair,two pair, sets about 28% of the time.
cheers
May 1, 2013
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personally i think its an easy call off with middle set here your only behind two hands on flop and aa unlikely as you say,
plus there are combos that you actually crush , all his two pair combos. just ul imo i dont think anything yiu can do if you make it 6k pre he prob calls still.
June 27, 2013
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I agree with all of the responses above.. But when I think about it.. Would a newbie player who has no concept of being stack aware or thinking about opponents hands.. Would he really risk his stack with anything other then the nuts. The more that I think about it, this type of player would more then likely just check call everything other then the nuts.. I just think he only has 2 hands which he would play it like this 10s and QJ.. I probly now being results orientented but maybe I could of found a fold if I had more time to think… Don’t get me wrong , I think folding set here is wrong almost all the time.. But I just think this player this spot is different
May 1, 2013
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I think you have to call if he is calling like 4/5k pre with very speculative hand it seems like hes the kinda guy who would commit all his chips with worse than kkk on that flop, because hes calling such a big raise pre hes showing a lack of awareness of your possible strength pre flop so as hes probably not thinking enough about your possible hand hes probably just going with whatever he has. As most players i guess are folding qj to such a big 4 bet pre as theyd be worried the hand could land them in a lot of trouble if they just flop top pair.
July 12, 2013
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I probly now being results orientented but maybe I could of found a fold if I had more time to think… Don’t get me wrong , I think folding set here is wrong almost all the time.. But I just think this player this spot is different
Disagree. I think you are being results oriented. If he flips over 1010 you never think about this hand again. And he flips 1010 more than he flips QJ. IMO I also think there is every 2 pair combo along w top pair and draw hands that are also shoving. I’m not gonna argue it … I’ve seen it from these types of players. Just a hand that played itself. I think the lesson in this, or what I’m taking at least, is the bet sizing vs these horribly inexperienced players.
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