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Video Suggestion: Review one or more final tables played on Stars
Barthold
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December 22, 2014 - 3:12 pm
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I would love to see a series where someone (preferrably Andrew) reviews one or more final tables played from major tournaments. Stars have a replayer where you can replay the final table and see all cards open. It would be interesting to see an analysis on final table play, for instance ICM considerations can be discussed.

theginger45

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January 11, 2015 - 6:06 pm
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Another training site – not naming any names – did this, and they were lightly reprimanded by the community in general for showcasing detailed analysis of other players’ games with hole cards up.

They chose a Sunday 500 final table I believe, with a lot of good regs playing there, and the gist of the players’ arguments was that while registering for the tournament means they agreed to having their hole cards exposed and replayed on PokerStars for anyone to see, they never agreed to having two high-profile regulars dissecting their play at a major final table on a training site and going into detail on the thought processes they were probably using. In all honesty, I can see their point.

It’s fine to watch hands with hole cards on a replay, because you don’t know the thought processes behind why a player plays a certain way. It’s fine to analyse a player’s thought process in a training video, because you don’t know their hole cards until showdown, so everything you’re saying is speculative or theoretical. But picking apart a player’s performance at a final table like that in a training video is a level of analysis that could actively damage that player’s ROI by giving away so much information, especially if they are playing at higher stakes.

I believe the video series in question was discontinued after two parts. It seems a little harsh on the players in question to give away so much information about their game over and above what the Stars replay does, so my initial guess is that it’s unlikely you’ll see a review like this any time soon, unfortunately.

Kalculater
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January 11, 2015 - 6:26 pm
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Personally, I dont see any ethical issues with good regulars dissecting others play with holecards exposed. Once information is available in the community players should be able to comment as they see fit. To hinder such video series is to hinder the poker information industry and the growth of poker becoming a more widely recognised sport. If it is adequate for observers, commentators and sport analysts to break down other sports in depth it should be okay to allow the same in poker.

I do believe I know the site you are talking about and the series were not cancelled as far as im aware. Their site has many series with many different majors with these types of reviews including WCOOP main, Sunday warmup and sunday milly final tables.

Whilst it is up to the TPE management whether they decide to go ahead or not with a series that is similar, to do so is to hinder freely available information, stunt poker analysis growth and hinder value for their customers, including myself.

theginger45

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January 11, 2015 - 6:44 pm
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Perhaps I’m thinking of something different, then. I thought I remembered people kicking up a fuss about that series. In any case, I’m just one guy, so I’m sure if other pros feel fine about it then the series will get made. Sorry for just barging in.

Although I will point out that it’s not really hindering freely available information, since detailed analysis from high-level pros isn’t available for free virtually anywhere these days. If anything, I kind of see it as just ensuring that it’s not possible for high-stakes regs to effectively access a paid service that regularly gives them detailed information on their opponents. That just seems a little shady to me. I also don’t really see poker as a sport, but that’s just semantics. I don’t think darts, pool or snooker are sports either, so you guys who love those things can all start flaming me now. 🙂

Kalculater
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January 11, 2015 - 8:28 pm
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Hopefully a series like this does get made. I would really like to hear Daryl Jace’s analysis on such final tables. From reading his website and coaching posts it seems like he regularly records and analyses final tables on stars already.

Whilst ‘freely available information’ was probably not the best or most correct term, i was referring to the information about the holecards being freely available. Analysis by high-stakes regs however is definitely not free. Considering the high price tag for subscribing to the site we are talking about I think the more detailed and high caliber of information is justified. I can see why high-stakes regs would look upon it shadily as its taking money straight out of their pocket, however i believe they should thrive on the challenge.

Sen
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January 12, 2015 - 10:42 am
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A series like this would be much appreciated.

I don't feel like there are any ethical issues as the information is already available. Who says that the person analysing the play actually exposes the real thought-process behind the players playing? And even if he does, what's the difference to a HH-review where you make comments about the play of an other player?

Nevertheless a great idea may be a combination-video from a TPE pro that got to the FT of an event that is replayed with hole cards later:

First showing the hand from a normal HH-review point and discussing it, then looking at the hole-card situation and re-analyse.

This is something that won't happen often, but when it does it would make for a great in-depth series on FT play.

Barthold
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March 3, 2015 - 2:13 pm
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I don't really see the ethical issues either. In part we already do this a lot in video's, if the hand goes to showdown… Moreover, I think every decision made in poker is subjective. Subjective because a lot of factors are involved making a decision (or not). For instance, dynamics between players what's are already been established at earlier tables, could make a move look very odd at the FT… So when a coach/video instructor/anyone is giving his opinion on plays, this by all means is not an exact science… so to it a bit in perspective, a lot of the times there is no clear right or wrong..

 

It also gives great opportunities to dive more into ICM calcuations and how to approach it and what to factor in and what not..

Anyway, I think it's a great way to learn, that's why I suggested it

EllDan
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March 3, 2015 - 3:08 pm
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Hope TPE can make this happen.  

 

There is a series by Cory Waaland “Ninja Tactics” that was released a few weeks ago that is close in that he is playing on Bovada.  Bovada HH allow for all hole cards to be displayed.  He does some discussion of villians play and some ICM talk.  

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